A long time ago at a resort far far away (you know, Colorado), someone made the decision to remove an item called Waffle Fry Nachos from the menu.
Most people didn't notice the change, but one person did and whenever Winter Park posted...well...anything, he would ask when Waffle Fry Nachos were coming back. With a determination that can only be admired, he asked again and again and again until...
They did.
In the grand scheme of things, this little story is a drop in the bucket, but it only exists because Winter Park is doing a lot of other things right. Big things.
First, they listen to their audience. Social media isn't just the resort shouting to their audience. It's a two-way street that involves as much listening as talking.
Second, they engage with their audience like people, not customers and corporations. Look at the tone of those messages. Technically the "resort" is replying, but the tone is real, it's fun, it's...human.
Third, they saw the story. To see a story you have to be looking for a story. To be looking for a story you have to care about stories, be fueled by stories. Winter Park clearly is.
I can't get over how much I love this.
A while back I was talking to a friend who was applying for a new job. This person is incredibly talented, but they lacked the confidence in themselves we all struggle with from time to time. As I pictured them in the interview, responding to questions about projects and skills and strengths, I had a funny realization:
The best person to tell this person's story isn't him, it's one of his friends. If I were in that interview, they'd hear the best version of his story.
The closer you get to a thing, the more you understand all the messy stuff under the surface. Being so aware of the imperfections can sometimes make it harder to be proud of the strengths. And then there's just the perception of patting yourself too hard on the back that can rub humans the wrong way.
This idea is true of ourselves as employees, but it's also true of the companies we market.
While I don't thing this explains all of it, I've often noticed that sometimes my favorite resort marketing campaigns aren't actually created by the resort. They're created by a "friend" of the resort who isn't shackled by those imperfections, who doesn't have the same bias implied in their words, and who has a more customer-relevant relationship with the mountain.
One example of this is when LL Bean told the story of Whaleback. Another example is this new video about Shames told by Mammut and filmmaker Zeppelin Zeerip.
Yes, the voices we hear are those who are close to the mountain. Yes, those people may know all the messiness behind the scenes. But because this is Mammut's story to tell, they get to tell it their way. They get to highlight all the stuff they love without being held back by that nagging feeling of "if people only knew...", the perception of them showing off, or the bias of your audience knowing your job is to sell.
The result is an underdog story that is beautifully told, but one that, if the resort were to deliver on their own, might not carry the same weight.
That idea - that other's sometimes tell better stories about the things we're trying to market than we can - is fascinating to me. If we can avoid feeling like it's an indictment of our own skills, it can open some really interesting doors of opportunity.
For example, once upon a time I wrote a glowing review of some new resort marketing technology. That combination of telling their story through my excited lens and the lack of bias that came along with it was so effective that my post became some of the best marketing they had. They had the counter-intuitive, but brilliant realization that if they sent traffic to my post instead of their website they might make more sales. So they tried it and...it worked.
Aside from being inspired by this specific story, that's the idea I want to leave with; That sometimes other's versions of our stories can be more powerful than our own.
If you have stories like this that exist, take some time to talk about this internally and see if it's worth shifting resources away from elevating your version of the resort's story to further elevate theirs. It can take some humility to go that direction, but it may be worth some brainstorming during your team's next strategy meeting.
"Having three people on the national team. I think it really highlights there's something special happening in Jackson..."It takes the story, the goal, and their triumph over that goal and gives new meaning to their ski school. So that when those same voices explain the joy of helping people, especially advanced skiers, get better? Yes, it's promotional, but it's an beautiful extension of the story. Amazing storytelling alone, but especially amazing marketing storytelling. Great stuff.
You've watch the way lift install crews communciate, you know how precarious it can look when those towers are put in place, and you probably how know they release the cable from the load. But for everyone else? It's mind blowing stuff to realize how the lifts someone has ridden hundreds of times were actually pieced together. Just take a few of the comments as examples of that:
"Crazy to see what kind of work goes into this. Amazing!" "That looks insane!!!" "So that’s how they do it! Cool!!"Were there a few people in the comments who already knew (roughly) how this worked? Sure, but for every one of them there were many who couldn't believe what they were seeing.
"Stories give moments meaning."As some point in the coming season just about every person who saw this video will look up at a tower, see the bolts connecting everything together that they've seen a hundred times, and have a simple moment of "Whoa" which will give that ride - and their relationship to the resort - a new layer of meaning. Great work, Kyle.
Gregg: Over the years we've seen apps have their moment of fame when it comes to being the app skiers use on the slopes. When you built slopes, did you see shortcomings in the market? Did you think you could just do it better? What was the angle you took?
Curtis: Oh man, this could be a whole podcast episode of chatting on this topic alone.
The initial shortcoming I wanted to address was just that I wanted to make a product I’d love to use myself. I’ve been a big fan of how Apple approaches software and UX since I was a kid, and I wanted to bring that same polish and high bar to a winter sports app. That’s been a north star for the entire life of Slopes.
Another angle that took root for me a little later, in 2015, was to not be one of those apps playing the VC / Silicon Valley game. You know, the ones that 1) come into the market with a big splash and do all the tricks to get a bunch of users hoping to become The App so they can sell the company or IPO for a lot down the road 2) fail to get big enough in ~3 years and become “not worth the investment” with the promise of a big exit no longer likely 3) then get abandoned and linger on the store for years without updates.
Gregg: What are some examples of this?
Curtis: SnoCru was a sad example of this (based on what we saw them do from the outside, I have no inside knowledge). Early on they were super cheap, more focused on getting users than a sustainable business model it seemed. Then in their last 1.5 or so years of existence they used a bunch of what are called “dark UX patterns” to try to get as much revenue from users and ads as possible so the company would look tasty to buyers. I saw their App Store reviews took a sharp dive, now filled with people complaining about being “tricked" into paying $60/yr or having to watch an ad on their phone to start recording on the Apple Watch app. A bunch of stuff that wasn’t healthy for the business and would only help in the shot-term, not build long-term users. And sure enough, looking for that exit, SnoCru approached me last March floating a 1-2 million sale price. When I declined at that price they closed shop days later, giving only 2 week’s notice to their users and no way for users to get all their recorded data out. I reached out offering to build whatever was needed to let their users migrate their data to Slopes so they wouldn’t lose it, and never heard back.
Gregg: What did seeing another app struggle like that do for your strategy and plans?
Curtis: We all get frustrated seeing the apps we come to rely on disappear (or worse get sold and then change into something we hate to use) and so I became determined to build Slopes in a way that could sustain itself as a great product for decades. No fancy “sell to a resort for $10mil” exit plan, no “sell my users’ data to the resorts and make the app free” creepiness. Just simple fair pricing that could let me grow Slopes into a business, focus all my efforts into the app as a full-time job, and eventually hire a small team to help me build out all my crazy ambitious ideas.
Slopes 1.0 from 2013.
Gregg: You're almost 10 years into Slopes, then. Has it been a pretty steady rise or did you have any tipping point type moments where your pace accelerated?
Curtis: I think the biggest inflection point was 2015 when I decided to turn it from a hobby app into a business. After the first two seasons of only being able to work on Slopes during nights and weekends I had a few thousand people who really loved the app and I thought there might be a business here. For the first two years though it was a paid up front app ($3.99) and that really held it back — it is very hard to persuade people to pay for software without being able to try it first. So I got serious that summer about turning it into a long-term business. I remember my a-ha moment was realizing that “season passes” at resorts are just yearly subscriptions, so I could totally pull off moving to free w/ a yearly sub, even though subscriptions weren’t much of a thing in apps yet. And it worked, after one season I was able to focus on the app full-time.
From there the growth has been steady, growing by a rate of ~2x every year. There have been lots of little steps along the way that have helped Slopes continue to grow at that pace, but that’s been more of a healthy long game of continual improvement than any one or two major spikes. Took lots of experimenting, fine-tuning, and learning along the way but that’s what you can do when you’re dedicated to building a great product.
Gregg: Over those years you've processed a ton of data. When you look at all of that, does anything stand out in terms of skier behavior that really stands out or has surprised you?
Curtis: I know for users, one surprising thing is how much of their day they end up standing in line or on lifts vs actually riding downhill.
For me though it hasn’t been skier behavior at the run-by-run micro level but more of a macro level thing. Specifically: weather and how that affects skiing. I’ll tell you, when I got into this I didn’t expect that climate change would be the biggest threat to my business. I remember Epic/Vail announced a big drop (8%?) in early-to-mid season traffic a few years back and I saw all that coming well ahead of time. It was all in the regions that were having really bad starts to the season (Whistler reported its worst early season snowfall on record in 30 years that year). It’s scary to see some resorts in Europe never opened that season because they don’t have snowmaking and rely on natural snow. With the data I have I can see all these trends at over 3,500 resorts world-wide, which really gives me a big-picture view of it (which got me to quickly start donating 2% of all the money Slopes earns every year to Protect Our Winters).
Slopes’ new interactive trail maps.
Gregg: Resorts and apps have always been a bit of a love/hate relationship.From your perspective, how all of those things intersect and how will that evolve going forward?
Curtis: Resorts are in a tough spot because apps are hard, and expensive, to do right. So much of resorts’ expertise is in the physical experience, they'd need a lot of new blood coming in that really get tech to nail the digital experience. But honestly I don’t think it is their job to knock an app out of the park. Do I really want all my past data locked into an Ikon app when I’m debating getting the Epic pass this year or visa versa? (Of course to the resorts that might sound great, lock-in is always a good thing to deter you from leaving). But your skis don’t work at only one set of resorts, and the resorts aren’t out here trying to push their own skis on you to “enhance the customer experience." I think the digital stuff / apps should be resort-agnostic too.
I’d love to see resorts just partner with Slopes and offer a Slopes season pass as part of their season passes, but I may be just a bit biased that dream, ha. Let them focus on the best on-mountain physical experience possible, let me focus on the best digital experience possible. We did something kinda like that with the Indy Pass this year where their passes come with 2 days of Slopes Premium, but we’ve never had a resort itself be interested in anything more than Slopes being a rebranded tab in their own apps.
Gregg: How do you view the relationship between your app (and technology in general) and an experience that's largely about unplugging and being away?
Curtis: You’re 100% right that we can’t let tech take over the ski experience. It is an easy trap to fall into: getting excited about what we can do, not if we should build it. Tech needs to support this sport we use to disconnect, not try to wedge its way into our lives and demand our “engagement” with it (see: digital addiction, etc).
Tech isn’t bad when done right though: text messages for coordinating on the mountain instead of everyone having to buy radios. GoPros for taking our own photos vs the resort’s on-mountain photographers. I try really hard to take a back seat to the ski experience with Slopes, only being helpful when wanted, and that’s the path I want to keep taking.
Gregg: What does the future of that relationship look like from your perspective?
Curtis: Where do I see that going? Resorts are starting to push trail maps to the phones, which is a rushed and imperfect solution at the moment, but what can that look like when mapping is done hands-free via AR in our goggles? Just like Google Maps / GPS dramatically changed how we drive and minimized the fear of getting lost back in the 2000s, that kind of tech for skiing will dramatically lower the barrier for a lot of people getting into the sport worried about accidentally ending up on a double black diamond their first time at Big Sky.
You better believe I’ve been building towards that.Gregg: I love this, I really do. I think the combination of getting out of the office, facetime, and showing love to an often underappreciate part of the ski community is great. Any last words about the effort? Alex: Honestly, it gives us a chance to meet people outside of the resort on their turf. Skiing and Riding isn't a sport, it is indeed a community and we want to remind people that it is a very welcoming community. My last advice for everyone is something I preach to the team here especially in today's world: BE NICE, BE KIND, BE POSITIVE AND BE HELPFUL. You asked for any last words! ;)
Gregg: And how did you end up at Mission Ridge?
Tony: When we moved to town for my wife's job, I had no ski industry or marketing specific experience. I was simply looking for a good job while I "figured things out". Super cliche right? I started at Mission Ridge as a Lift Operator for the 2012/13 season to stay off the couch while making a little money and hopefully also some turns. November and December stacked up to be one of the best starts to the season on the books at Mission Ridge! Needless to say, as a Lifty, there was a lot more work than play with all the snow. But I was stoked. It was so much fun interacting with all the guests and the rest of the MR team. Especially coming from a fairly socially isolated atmosphere working in autobody shops.
Gregg: Crazy, so what was the path to Marketing Director?
Tony: Just after the new year, the Marketing Director at that time came up to me while I was setting up the maze for Chair 1 prior to opening and asked if I "wanted to come in a couple of hours early each day". I had no idea why but I said yes. Saying yes to work was a conditioned response for me. Always take work and then figure out how to make it work later is how I operate.
Turns out I was offered the snow reporter gig for the remainder of the season. After one of the best starts to a season ever in November and December of that year, I reported just 38" more over the next three and a half months. Luckily, Mission Ridge's amazing snow quality and ridiculous number of sunny days annually kept us smiling and closing with all chairs and 100% of our terrain open (2,000 acres) in mid-April. Let's just say I got really good finding ways to say that we were looking forward to "great groomed conditions, sunny skies, and comfy temps" over those 3 and a half months.
Over the next three seasons, I transitioned from the Snow Reporter and Marketing Assistant to the Administrative Manager to the Marketing Manager, and eventually to the Marketing Director role.
Gregg: That's awesome. With such a unique background - both economics and automotive admin are pretty rare in marketing teams - what did the industry look like when you made your way into the marketing director's chair?
Tony: I'm heading into my 5th season as Marketing Dir. Four years ago a couple of things stand out in my mind. 1) It was becoming clear that tech, especially in the eComm and associated spheres, was changing at a faster and faster clip. 2) Resorts were (and still are) gobbling up reciprocal partnerships like crazy (the resorts that is, that weren't gobbling up other resorts). And 3) many resorts, especially across the West and Northwest in particular, were coming off one of the worst seasons ever. Looking back, it was kind of like investing at the bottom of the market just as things were starting to look up. The situation was ripe for change and new ideas.
Gregg: Did anything strike you as odd?
Tony: Antiquated POS systems and what seems to be the industry's general inertia and resistance to change. Technology is always changing, but it seems that in a couple of areas in particular, there has been tremendous growth in the last four or five years. I think we are starting to see a lot of folks breaking out of the old mindset and really striving to catch up to guests expectations when it comes to things like the eComm experience.
Gregg: What about opportunities?
Tony: There has been a ton of opportunity to not do things the way they have always been done...to not simply check traditional marketing boxes if they weren't the right fit for Mission Ridge. We stopped doing some things to shift resources in other directions. Essentially we cut out a lot of traditional tactics, especially print, and focused on technology and relationships.
For example, right off the bat we stopped having brochures printed and distributed. We didn't want to spend money to have pieces of paper floating around the Puget Sound on ferry ships.
Gregg: When we talked for the first time, you mentioned the way you approached the balance between season passes and day tickets was one of those things that stood out. Any thoughts on what you saw there or how it impacted strategy?
Tony: Coming out of the 14/15 season we had a really tough pass sale due to the extremely low snow season. Mission Ridge was the only resort in the state of Washington to operate every weekend of the season (though we were closed midweek for a lot of it from February on) but that season had a major effect on some passholders. We had a really low number going into 15/16 relative to historical averages. The next year was a great snow year. We sold a lot of tickets.
For a long time, Mission had been looking for a way to move the needle on passes. Historically pass sales are an awesome example of supply and demand. If you lower the price units sold go up. If you raise the price units sold go down. But at the end of the day, revenue stays pretty much the same unless you are able to tap into a new market.
Gregg: How did that change after the 15/16 season?
Tony: After the 15/16 season, we decided to really focus on making sure we were helping guests experience The Ridge through the best product for them. We also wanted change when passes were being sold. In order to offer better guest service, set the business up to be more successful during the summer months (we have no summer operations, just expenses), and to be able to focus on ticket products going into the fall, we changed our pass sale strategy going into the 16/17 season. A shift to a quantity-based, rather than a date-driven deadline system has been one of the most important decisions for Mission Ridge. It has helped us move the needle and be able to re-invest more back into our infrastructure to make sure we are around for the next 50 years (we celebrated our 50th anniversary in 16/17).
Gregg: So interesting. How did your market respond?
Tony: We didn't change people's behavior with respect to what they were buying, just when they were doing it. The biggest group of passholders are still getting their passes for the next season at the lowest prices. The thing that has changed is they are locking that value in on the first day, or first couple days, of the sale instead of waiting until the final 24-48 hours before a standard date deadline. They are geared up for the next season in March when we have our full complement of season pass and ticketing staff instead of May or June.
Gregg: With all of these things, how confident were you?
Tony: "If the challenge we face doesn't scare us, then it's probably not that important." Great timing for this quote to show up in my inbox last week from Simon Sinek's daily inspiration email series.
On more than one occasion I've been called very analytical. Even though I've had the opportunity to express a far goofier side through videos like the one below during my time at Mission, I am generally considered to be a pretty serious person. When we come to a decision we are confident because we have analyzed it extensively. But when you step into the void you would be foolish to assume that just because you think it is the best path, that it is truly the right decision. There is always a healthy amount of concern. There is always a chance that we just can’t see why doing things like everyone else is the right path. And let's not forget that little thing called snow. Snowfall has the ability to make any decision look great if it is deep and frequent.
Gregg: Do you remember what the doctor said in reply? What was the general prognosis overall in terms of doing what you'd always loved to do? Joe: While I don’t remember the Dr. exact response I do remember him laughing and saying something along the lines of, “That’s the last thing you should be thinking about.” When it came to my prognosis, it was surprisingly positive. Long story, short – I’m one lucky son of a bitch. I had taken a big fall and somehow came out of it without any of the “major” injuries - broken leg(s), broken back, broken neck, brain trauma – that often accompany a fall of that magnitude. And while I had a long road to recovery ahead of me including 9 months of swelling in my face and plenty of physical therapy, the Dr. assured me that I’d have no problems getting back to doing the things that I love. Gregg: Talk a bit more about those things you love. What did that mean to you to know you'd have no problem getting back to a healthy, active lifestyle? Joe: I’m still not sure how I did it, but I managed to grow up in the country, with an older brother, playing more sports than you can shake a stick at without ever having a serious injury. I mean I didn’t even have a broken bone until I broke a bone in my hand during a basketball game my junior year of high school. So to hear that I would have no problem returning to my healthy, active lifestyle was quite the relief. I count myself lucky to have been raised by parents who fostered and encouraged my love for the outdoors and being outside. But I do have a confession to make – I didn’t start alpine skiing until I was 10. My parents started me off on Nordic skis. From the time I could dribble, basketball consumed my life. During the winter you were more likely to find me shoveling off the court behind our house to do shooting drills than you were to find me skiing. I’ve never raced. I’ve never competed. I’ve never worked in a ski shop. I think I took two “lessons” from a family friend so I’m not even sure if that counts? Hell, before I moved to Utah I think the most days I’d ever skied in a season was 20 . . . maybe. Compared to most people I’m lucky enough to work with in the ski industry I’m a full on newbie. Gregg: Crazy, I didn’t realize you started so late. When did the love of skiing really kick in? Joe: I’ve always liked skiing, but skiing hasn’t always been a big part of my life. And when I look back, the transition didn’t really start happening until after college. Sure, I got a trip in here or there and a few days in at the local resorts but when I was pinching pennies in college it was hard to justify forking over money for gear and lift tickets. My first job out of college was in the marketing/pr department of the Spokane Regional Convention & Visitors Bureau. Working in tourism marketing allowed me to work with Ski the Inland Northwest, the local resort marketing organization (think Ski Utah). And that’s when it really clicked for me. These people were truly doing it right. They got to pair their passions – skiing and marketing. They got to go skiing and call it work – it blew my mind! From that point on it’s been all downhill, literally and figuratively. And it all really started when I packed up and moved to Utah.
Joe’s skills have improved...slightly. Photo: Weston Shirey
Gregg: What year was this that you moved to Utah? Did you you already have a gig lined up or did you know that's where you wanted to be and just go for it?
Joe: During the summer of 2009, the economy was starting to rebound from the great recession but was by no means in an ideal position. So, like any smart person, I quit my stable job with benefits and went on a month long backpacking trip through Europe with some friends. Before I left I e-mailed two resorts in Utah and two resorts in Colorado. I talked about the experience I had and said that I was looking to get my foot in the door of the ski industry. Then I hopped on plane. The next time I checked my e-mail I was in Florence, Italy and I remember having responses from both resorts in Utah and one in Colorado. There were more e-mails and phone interviews as the communication continued after I returned to the U.S. When it all shook out Solitude Mountain Resort’s director of marketing, Nick Como, offered me a season marketing gig without ever meeting me in person. I took the offer and moved to Utah the fall of 2009.
Gregg: How’d that go? Was your gig at Solitude all you'd hoped for back when you wrote those emails? Were you pretty sure ski was where you wanted to be long term?
Joe: That first winter at Solitude was a winter full of learning. Being in a two person marketing department with my boss, director of marketing, Nick Como, allowed me to have my hands in pretty much everything. From taking the reigns of Solitude's social media to e-newsletters, media events, advertising, marketing plan development - you name it, and chances are I got the chance to be a part of it.
I learned that a Kia Spectra is not a mountain worthy vehicle (duh) which in turn led to me learning that hitchhiking is one of the best ways to get to work in Big Cottonwood Canyon. I learned that one cannot eat too many breakfast burritos, particularly when they're free and you have no money. I learned how to use a camera and more importantly how to take ski photos. I learned that I did not know how to ski compared to everyone else and then did everything I could to change that. But most importantly I learned that despite the highs and lows of the winter that I was 100% sure the ski industry was where I wanted to be.
Gregg: We’re getting close to the timeline of the accident, right? Within about a year? Where were you when it happened?
Joe: I finished off that winter at Solitude. And after completely depleting my bank account in an effort to make it home, you know, since I didn’t have a job, I got a call from Canyons Resort director of public relations, Libby Dowd, saying I should apply for an open marketing role. Next thing I know I was moving back down to Utah and starting my new job at the marketing coordinator with Canyons Resort.
But yes, within the year I had my climbing accident.
https://twitter.com/Saltlakelocal/status/29234477270
Gregg: You alluded to concern over being able to do your job once you woke up in the hospital. How did Canyons respond to your accident?
Joe: At the time of my accident I hadn’t been working for Canyons for that long. Hell, I think my insurance had only kicked in a few months prior so I was definitely worried about what was going to happen and how it might affect my job. My boss at the time was Jim Powell, the director of marketing for Canyons Resort. He came and visited me in the hospital and assured myself and my mom that everything was going to be ok. He then went the next step and set me up in the Silverado Lodge for my first week out of the hospital. At the time I was living in a pretty dingy basement apartment with some sketchy steps that would have been tough to navigate. From that first visit in the hospital to the lodging and helping me navigate days off, vacation, etc. over the following weeks, Jim and the Canyons Resort team was amazing.
Gregg: Did anything in your outlook on life or work change after your accident?
Joe: Honestly, I don’t think my accident changed my outlook on life, work or the balance between the two. In fact, I think it reinforced the career decisions and lifestyle decisions that I’d made up to that point. The mountains and the outdoors have always been my escape for recreation, fun, excitement and challenge. And by working in the ski industry and the greater outdoor industry, they’ve also become my place of work. I think that by happening in the mountains my accident served more as a reminder, increasing my awe and respect for the mountains and the skills required to recreate in them.
Gregg: While you stayed in the mountain and ski industry, you've since moved away from the resort side to retail/gear with Salomon. Why the change and how did that play into your career goals and direction?
Joe: Moving away from resort side of the ski industry was one of the harder professional decisions I’ve ever had to make. In addition to working with clients like Tordrillo Mountain Lodge and Salomon, I’d had the privilege of managing the marketing for Alta Ski Area for the previous four years. If you know Alta and the people who people who call that place home, you know why it was such a hard decision. And while there were a few things outside my control that impacted my decision, the biggest reason for the change was looking for a new challenge. When the opportunity to manage the freeski and outdoor marketing for one of the top outdoor companies in the world presents itself, you don’t say no. In the end, the marketing plan development, budget management and global collaboration at a high level is exactly the experience that I’ll need to continue to progress in my career.
Gregg; Speaking of Alta, talk about your time there working for a brand with that kind of history and value.
Joe: After four years, I’m a proud graduate of the University of Alta. But seriously, I couldn’t have asked for a more fun and professionally rewarding four years. Forget that I had an office in the legendary Buckhorn building at the base of the Wildcat Chair. Note: Mike Rogge (of Powder Magazine fame) once said I had the “best office in the industry.” The best, and most rewarding part of that job, was having the opportunity to tell the story of Alta and the people who call that place home. From fun content projects like the “On The Lift With” series to marketing campaigns like the “Un-Campaign” and “Snow and . . “, it was a dream to be able to work with the team to help promote one of the most iconic ski destinations in the world. Much love to Connie Marshall and Onno Wieringa for welcoming me to the team, giving me the opportunity to learn, grow and create and for being an example of grace and professionalism.
Gregg: What does your daily grind look like? Dwight: I personally do less of the actual day to day execution than I did in the past and focus more on managing my staff, helping them to prioritize and getting the systems and software in place to be able to execute our ideas. Gregg: Looking back, any specific experiences in ski that you've leaned on in professional sports? Dwight: Two years later and I still bring up what we did at Copper all the time. I’ve been able to take insights from all different areas of what we did at Copper and relate it to this new job. There is a lot of overlap between the businesses, so whether it’s Guest Services, F&B, Parking or Tickets there is always a past experience I can pull from. I don’t think the ski industry gets as much credit as it should on having the business side dialed. Granted I only worked at two resorts but we understood our guests and our markets and were close enough to the numbers to be able to adjust on weather of all things. Talk about being nimble. Not many industries are that reliant on something they have no control over. Gregg: Let's flip the script. Looking back, what does the ski industry look like? What do you see now - good or bad - you didn't see then? Dwight: I think the biggest difference I’ve seen between the industries is Professional Sports is a sales first industry where the ski industry is marketing first. Where that really plays out is in the relationship building that is done on the ticket sales side. The sports industry spends a lot of time cultivating one on one relationships with Season Ticket Holders and Suite Holders. Gregg: Anything we should be doing better in that regard? Dwight: I think the ski industry could be better at making their high value guests feel more appreciated. It doesn’t have to be much, especially when at the volume that may be required in the ski industry but I think there is opportunity to reduce the Season Pass churn that is seen year over year by having a more intimate relationship with that guest. Gregg: Anything specific or noteworthy or generally applicable that sports teams are doing to build those relationships? Dwight: Tech-wise most sports teams are using a CRM platform to manage touchpoints for each guest. These touch points can range from simple phone calls to in-seat visits during the games or even meet and greets with players or team executives. I think the more we can allow for two way communication between you and your guest, the more ownership and loyalty they will feel for your brand. I know that becomes exponentially harder when you go from 3 or 5 k season ticket holders to 50 to 100k pass holders, but you could certainly build automated campaigns to communicate about things other than deadlines or sales offers, in addition use those to elicit feedback and allow your guest an easy opportunity to start that communication. With RFID passes there could also be ways to create surprise and delight experiences for guests at your resort. Also, with the launch of new products such as the Ikon Pass I would make sure to have a retention plan that is not just focused on the sales cycle but looks at engaging the guest throughout their journey through the winter and at each of the participating resorts. https://twitter.com/DetroitRedWings/status/980130018692161536 Gregg: Speaking of technology, between your work on Sherpa and others, you were always working at that intersection of technology and skiing. Where's your head at these days in terms of the role technology plays in guest experience - sports, ski, or other? Dwight: I think technology plays a very important role. There is so much we can do with technology to make our guest’s experience safer and more enjoyable. We should always be looking forward to new opportunities to do that. I will always suggest to push the boundaries to create cool products, but man is it hard to change guest behavior that has been ritualized after so many years. It takes so much work to drive adoption, educate guests and build promoters for your product. I think sometimes that is lost on those of us who are behind the scenes. We get wrapped up in creating the tech and forget that this isn’t Field of Dreams. They are not coming unless we give them ample benefits that drives their change in behavior. Sometimes it also just comes down to us making the hard decision to force the new behavior on the guest by removing the option to do it the old way. Gregg: What does that mean for us? Dwight: We as marketers need to be prepared in advance to support the adoption process with financial and staffing resources and be prepared to justify those resources going forward. If you don’t have buy in from everyone in your company, top-down, your investment in technology will be a waste. Plan, understand what your goals are, how it affects your guest and what triggers you are prepared to pull to get the result you want. But don’t stop innovating.
Gregg: That’s awesome. You've done an incredible job of branding yourself (seems everywhere I turn I see your face; MicroConf, Indiehackers, etc.) and Tiny Marketing Wins focuses on the small and simple, is there a common thread there that guides your marketing approach?
Justin: For sure. I'd say there's a few common threads:
But you're going to get a bunch of different options.
Gregg: So how could resorts improve, then? Any ideas floating around in your head?
Justin: Give folks an interactive checklist that helps them see if your resort is right for them. You want to help the person searching for answers make progress.
Remember, there's a lot of anxiety when you're booking a family vacation. Lots is riding on that decision. All of your marketing should be catered towards:
Gregg: So how did you go from one-off still images to doing video for the mountain?
Joey: In 2014 I called up Lonie, the president of Bohemia, and told him he needed a great video out there to let the world know how amazing the place is. I said "if we let them know, they will come from all over this country." The Keweenaw peninsula is a special place, a micro climate of lake effect snow but it also has vertical.
I love to tell people who never been there "if someone sawed off the top 900 vert of Crested Butte and dropped it into the U.P of Mich you would have Bohemia."
Lonnie agreed to having me make a video for him, which was amazing for I had zero experience at this just a ton of faith and desire.
I was trying to convince my connections in the industry to back me on a video project for years before this but no one believed in me. That year I made the short action video "Midwest Powder Mecca" and it was a great success. Winning the Warren Miller Hometown Hill contest and getting premiered at the beginning of all the major showing of their theater screenings. While filming Midwest Powder Mecca, Lonie approached me about getting some raw footage of the characters of the hill, for a production company out of NY (Peacock Productions) that was interested in possibly doing a reality show on the place.
Gregg: And that’s where the original concept came from?
Joey: Yeah, they wanted to see if there was enough there for it to stick to the wall. I was game, it only sounded like a possible doorway from wedding photography and portrait work I was doing back in Dubuque in the off season to maintain. The NY production company didn't bite and I pursued another buyer in LA via a friend, but no cigar, close I was told.
I wasn't satisfied and rubbed Lonie to let me make the show for him. I submitted a proposal the next season but Lonie had a ton on his plate with the business. Then the next season came around and Lonie approached me a few weeks before the season started and we struck a deal to make Mount Bohemia TV.
No serious plan, nothing story boarded, just a freestyle connect the dots project. The rest is history.
Gregg: In my experience with storytelling you're always balancing what the characters give to you and what you can draw out of them. These videos have so many moments, how many of these are just happening and how many do you have to do some sort of setup?
Joey: I would have to say the majority of the moments are natural organic moments. This show is more documentary than formulated. It's way more to the truth than your typical network reality programs. I miss so many moments by not having the record button on all the time and when it slips by me and I ask them to say it again, it never compares to the real deal. The employees here are used to me shoving a camera to their face which helps. And with the right personality or charisma you can usually make customers be willing and feel comfortable when filming.
It's a team event but at times I'm battling the edit around my voice. You have to bring some energy to the room at times. We will have candid moment and then I may pursue some reactions from customers and employees that correlate.
Gregg: Explain that a bit.
Joey: Well, it's not the rock star ski/snowboard pro who's jet setting to all the rad pow palaces of the world rubbing shoulders with other sponsored jet setting athletes. Don't get me wrong I would love to live that life of the sponsored skier, who wouldn't. I just kinda feel disconnected to that story, "I won't be able to afford that helicopter hook up, there is no way I can hit that cliff or do that trick or afford that exotic location" but I can relate to the dynamics of the ski area. I can relate to this trivial scene and these people, we all see these people running to and fro while we casually enjoy the day on the mountain. We show the less perfect side of skiing/snowboarding and the comedy is rewarding to all.
Gregg: So when did it start to gain some traction?
Joey: After we published a few episodes the first season I wasn't sure where this was going. We had our fans but that was mostly made up of Mount Bohemia die hards. I wasn't sure if I was too close to the scene and to an outsider it wouldn't make sense. to be honest it wasn't until Slopefillers published an article about us did I realize this was working outside our little north woods Yooper bubble.
Gregg: Has ski media caught on to that yet?
Joey: Unofficial Network has become a fan and carries most of our releases. One published article said “Mount Bohemia’s ABBA Backcountry Bus Is One Of The Funniest Things In Skiing.”. Mount Bohemia has always been an anomaly in the ski industry so it only makes sense for Mount Bohemia TV to be the same. Our format is unlike anything else out there so I understand we are going to have our dislikers. I myself can barely watch a straight up action video anymore, they all look the same to me, so obviously it’s hard to please everyone.
Overall, People tell me daily on the hill that Bohemia TV is what got them to come. I also know some original patrons might not like the show for Mount Bohemia has increased season pass sales like no other since we started publishing, but I'm ecstatic about the show and this amazing opportunity I have been given to document the life of a ski area and to have it be located in the area I'm from and to change perspectives makes it even more magical.
Do yourself a favor and set aside an evening to binge-watch the series on Mt Bohemia's YouTube Channel episodes 1-3 are here).
I didn’t have an Alexa at the time, so I downloaded a simulator and got to creating a very basic “hello world” app and shared it with some people. I learned a lot about the usage patterns “voice vs clicks” and what is the right balance of information to communicate via voice. Based on feedback from co-workers and friends the text we wanted to speak was modified maybe a dozen times before we landed on what we ending up liking and ultimately releasing.
Once we decided upon the ways in which Alexa would speak, we created Alexa specific JSON feeds using data from our custom snow/weather/lift/trail/activity reporting tool QuickTrax Alerts. From there it was pretty easy to link those feeds to specific Alexa apps and submit to the app store, very similar to the iOS app submission process.
Gregg: The app was built internally, then? Was it just you or who else got involved?
Steven:The Alexa aspects were created here, but the Alexa specific JSON data feeds were created by a contractor that we often use for smaller scale development needs. I created the app, but I involved as many people as I could to get feedback on the content.
Gregg: From downloading the simulator and submitting to their app store, about how long did it take?
Steven:About 4 weeks of off-again, on-again work.
Gregg: You mentioned finding the right balance of information to communicate and finding the right text to speak, can you walk through that process a bit and talk about what you ultimately ended up going with and why?
Steven:The process was pretty organic. We use Slack to communicate across our many resorts so I would take a stab at what Alexa would say, put it in Slack, get feedback. Adjust, Get feedback, adjust, and so on. I leaned heavily on the feedback from those co-workers who own and use their Alexas to help determine what is natural. We ultimately ended up with the following statement:
"New snow in the last 24 hours totals 10 inches. High of 32 degrees today with Cloudy skies. Current Surface Conditions are Spring. 127 trails open.”We landed on this statement by focusing on a statement that read naturally and provided what a skier would need in order to decide whether or not to head up to the mountain that day. Gregg: It works with all Intrawest resorts then? Give me an example of the commands you can say to Alexa. Steven:Yep, all 6. It’s considered a “Flash Briefing,” so there is no interaction other than Alexa’s standard: “What’s my Flash Briefing.” We wanted it to be part of the Alexa user’s morning routine. Get the news from NPR, Local Weather, Mountain Information, Stocks etc… We wanted the user to be able to add it once and be able to hear it every day, instead of having to remember custom interactions. Usage would be much lower if users had to ask: “Alexa open Winter Park Snow Report”, then “Alexa Trails Open,” or “Alexa Weather at Winter Park Resort.” Gregg: Any initial results you'd be okay sharing or initial feedback now that it's out in the wild? How has it paired with your goals or expectations going in? Steven:We haven’t really advertised the feature this season, so pickup amongst Alexa users was mainly organic. Given the time invested we are quite happy with the results so far. Gregg: Let's wrap up with a final question I think you're as well-suited to answer as anyone and that is the advantages of being a marketer who can write code. Would this app exist if you weren't both a marketer (to see the opportunity) and a developer (to act on that opportunity) without having to pitch it as just an idea, get budget, find a developer, go back and forth with them (instead of someone internal), etc.? Steven:The app might still exist, it might just have taken a bit longer to get buy-in on a budget. Intrawest is very open to new ideas like this and has really adapted a fail fast approach to efforts like these. However, given the fact this fell within my ability and interest levels, it was a no-brainer to hack on this during periods of downtime to see what we could come up with. With tech changing so quickly if you can’t dive in and experiment you are going to miss opportunities. Intrawest realizes this and gives us great leeway in experimenting with new tech to understand how they might benefit our customers.
MJ: When that ski bum boyfriend of mine convinced me to move to Vancouver, I found Danielle fairly quickly upon arriving. It was exactly my dream - to live and work in Whistler and apply my marketing background to an agency that was focused on the outdoors. I did lie about my age, and I kinda still do.
Gregg: Love it. What year are we talkin' here?
MJ: I started working with Danielle in 1998 or 1999.
Gregg: Who is Origin working with at this point and what kind of work were you doing for them?
Danielle: We were working for several local activity operators, real estate developers, etc (it was the 90’s in Whistler after all), and we were working for Whistler and Blackcomb Mountains. The eventual merger of those two companies under Intrawest, and their flurry of resort acquisitions and other businesses like real estate development, golf course management, retail and rental operations in resorts around North America opened some incredible doors for us.
Gregg: MJ, what was your role back then?
MJ: My first official role I think was "production manager", coordinating, negotiating printing and helping Danielle to run the studio as she was still doing art direction and design back then. We realized very quickly that there were opportunities beyond the graphic design and studio demands for more marketing planning, brand creative and helping clients with various marketing problems.
Gregg: How did Origin and those skills and Whistler fit into all that was happening?
Danielle: Whistler was seen as a destination that had a magic formula, and we were seen as the agency that understood that, so our credibility was really high. Artificially high probably. But we’re smart, ;) and we learned fast and took a fake-it-til-you-make it approach. It was a few years before I realized that we actually did have real experience and expertise to offer.
MJ: We also realized within a year or two that there was some wow factor with a Whistler-based firm. That, by virtue of Origin's location and our connection to the mountains, other resorts and other non-Whistler clients were interested in us. One of our first bigger contracts came with the (then) Intrawest Retail Group based in Golden Colorado. That lead to work with Colorado Ski Country which lead to work with other non-Whistler based resort and mountain-sport accounts.
Gregg: Speaking of size, why is Origin the size it is? Why is it still focused on outdoors/ski when your talents clearly could fit elsewhere?
MJ: It's because we take it seriously. It's not just the idea that we want to merge our passions with our profession, but the idea that our business is about "inspiring people to play outside". As business owners, we take that seriously, we've committed to our staff, we've committed to ourselves that this is what Origin is going to be really good at. We're spending all day everyday understanding what makes outdoor enthusiasts click, what they care about, what they respond to. The size of the clients is less relevant than the ability to answer "does working with this client allow us to fulfil our vision?" If the answer is yes, we're going to consider it. If the answer is "not really", we're going to pass.
One of my biggest learnings in my career (and it happened early on) was the power of saying no. Saying no to clients that did not fit with our vision, saying no to working with assholes, saying no to work that we couldn't be proud of. It sounds counter-intuitive when you're starting a new business but I credit those "no's" as how we've been able to stay in this niche and continue to love it.
Gregg: When you started to land big clients like Whistler, were you ever tempted to go even bigger? Did you ever try?
MJ: It really depends on how you see it. For me, when I started the Montreal office, I had a list of my dream clients on the wall and worked my ass off to try to get anywhere near those. We got super lucky in getting to work with Jay Peak early on (who was on the top of that list). Then we started working with The North Face, Salomon and more recently, Lululemon and Mountain Equipment Co-op (The Canadian REI). For us, those are "big" wins.
But, outside the niche, we never pitched Audi or tried to work with Pepsi, no.
Gregg: So when you look at all the areas you work in, what's next? For example, what do you see as the future of the outdoor experience?
MJ: There are a few key things that most of your readers are already likely aware very of. This includes the notion that story and cause are as important in a customer's choice of a vacation destination or a new jacket. The fact that our biggest opportunities are with urban-dwelling outdoor consumers who weren't raised on traditional outdoor activities and don't consider themselves "outdoorsy" yet they enjoy activities that take them outside. And these new motivators (Socialization, competition, fitness) drive these consumers more than a connection with nature or a passion for the outdoors.
And, finally, let’s face it; the outdoor industry has historically been about white guys, and a lot of outdoor marketing doesn’t reflect the make-up of modern society. This has resulted in an industry that can feel elitist and un-inclusive to those that don’t look like the “typical” outdoor athlete. Traditional ethnic, gender and body-image norms in the outdoor industry alienate a massive number of potential customers, and wise brands are working to make the outdoors more inviting and inclusive to all.
As the backcountry movement keeps growing in the East, and more people are committed to making it available, we’ve also got more terrain to choose from every year. So while it isn’t the same as summiting a 14000’ peak and getting a 6000’ descent, it’s definitely strikingly beautiful and it’s great skiing and it’s right here in our back yard.
Gregg: Josh, talk a bit more about rentals. Does that perception impact how many people have or buy their own gear? How big of a role are rentals in getting people in the backcountry?
Josh Arneson: There is a core set of people that have their own backcountry touring gear. But, there is also a population of people who would like to try backcountry skiing before they commit to purchasing equipment. Until this season our on-site backcountry rental fleet was pretty limited. The addition of new equipment from Dynafit will allow the alpine skier to more easily transition to backcountry equipment, right on site. Our goal is to reduce the friction and increase trial of the sport of backcountry skiing, providing quality rental equipment that is available onsite, coupled with introductory classes will help us achieve that goal.
Gregg: When you look at this program, what kind of opportunities do you see for actually driving revenue for the resort?
Josh Arneson: Skiers looking to access our terrain need either a Nordic season pass or a Nordic day ticket, and we have a core base of folks who have been accessing our terrain this way for years. The addition of educational programs, tours, and rental equipment opens the experience up to more people.
The tours are great for established backcountry skiers who just want to become more familiar with the land. The educational programs and rental equipment allow novice backcountry skiers to try it out. We'll see direct revenue from all of these programs. We have already booked some vacations where access to these programs was the motivating factor. In addition to people solely motivated by these programs we expect to see an increased trial rate from both locals and overnight guests.
We view the access that we provide to backcountry terrain coupled with the programs, tours, and rentals as a unique selling point for Bolton Valley. Because this is an experience that is not offered by any of our competitors in quite the same way, we feel we have a great opportunity to set Bolton apart.
Gregg: Talk about the drone side of capture. How often do you use a drone to get shots and did you have any experience flying drones before starting at Angel Fire?
Kaela: The drone is a really cool tool to have in my arsenal. I had only flown a drone a couple of times before Angel Fire, just recreationally, but now that I’m licensed, I try to use it at least once during every shoot. It adds a completely different perspective to all the action.
Gregg: Speaking of license, what was the process to do so and why did you decide to take that step?
Kaela: I had to be licensed for the resort to even consider letting me fly a drone on the property - the resort is a no-fly zone and doesn’t allow drones unless the pilot is properly certified. The certification process involved passing the FAA’s Airman Knowledge Test, which includes everything from recognizing weather patterns to understanding how to read aeronautical charts. So for someone with little to no previous aeronautical knowledge (like me), it meant a lot of studying!
Gregg: That's awesome. It sounds like some of the content may have not have been quite as useful for your situation, but overall did you feel the training helped once you got behind the controls? Kaela: Definitely! I feel that I’m a more capable and safe pilot now that I understand the rules and regulations involved with using a drone in airspace. Gregg: Have a few favorite stills or videos you've captured since then you're most proud of? Kaela: Yes! The snowmaking shots (that got your attention) were pretty amazing to me, since I’ve never seen Angel Fire Resort’s (or any) snowmaking from that view. https://twitter.com/AngelFireResort/status/932673829507293190 Gregg: Any advice for resort marketers or photographers/videographers thinking of adding a drone to their arsenal? Kaela: For any visual media person considering getting a drone: It adds such a powerful and unique perspective to any project,and your audience will be instantly wow’ed. Just please know your stuff - one dumb move affects all of us!
Gregg: I'm not an expert in photography, but most HDR images seem to work best when they include colors, especially in the lights and darks. Tahoe is blessed with amazing sunrises and a beautiful blue lake, so what can Violet do for a resort that has more overcast days than bluebird? Or a resort that doesn't overlook that kind of vista?
Brandon: We have come to a realization early on in the game that we are not for everyone. Prism's entire business model is to inspire travel and help premium brands share the beauty of their experience with the world. We call it dynamic "Place Branding". Every travel experience has a signature shot that over time will tell an incredible content story. We do a significant amount of research and spent a lot of time ensuring we get that shot.
Most webcams go up where it is logistically easy to accommodate and to be honest the quality never necessitated a need for the workflow to be image driven. We help our clients use content from Violet for all marketing efforts (i.e Social, digital, print) if we can not find a shot that our clients are not be proud of we are the first to tell them we are probably not the right fit.
Gregg: Talk more about this "Signature Shot" you work for. Maybe give me an example from a Tahoe resort and walk me through some of the conversations that were had as you made that decision.
Brandon: The majority of our clients are not in the ski industry and never thought about a webcam or considered it apart of their marketing arsenal. This forced us to think like marketers and learn/understand the value of content. The beauty of travel is there is never a lack of inspiration and most good marketeers have already done the work and know what shot best represents their product. We then have a process were we validate their thinking or add to it by developing a storyboard using social and digital insight and understanding how the lighting conditions will change throughout the day and over seasons.
We then usually have a list of 2-4 shots we like, from here we work with IT teams and figure out how to make it happen. The Ski Industry is pretty talented at making things happen in difficult logistical conditions so we are excited to see the end result of every camera that gets installed.
(more impressive - automated - photos from Diamond Peak)
Gregg: Let me jump back a bit to something you said about social integration. I see a lot of photos from Violet's show up in my feeds. With such high quality imagery readily accessible, what have you done to facilitate that sharing - particularly from the brand itself but also from followers?
Brandon: Our company tagline is Share Your Place™ so sharing content is a very important element of our business. The consumer can share imagery directly to Facebook or Twitter right from the interface on the clients website. Our back-end web-based system allows our clients and any strategic partners (news media, travel resources etc.) to pull real-time images or images from up to two weeks past. We also take a very pro-active effort to help clients find the best images possible. Prism is a Software as a Service business we continue to put significant development in to this area of our business to make it easier for everyone to find the best content possible and at the most relevant times.
Also as we continue to scale we add strategic partners that our clients may not have had the chance without Violet to have sharing imagery through. Our Lake Tahoe clients see imagery shared at local (Tahoe South), regional (Reno Tahoe) and State (Visit California/Travel Nevada) levels. Our clients own the content and have unlimited license use of it and we support and encourage sharing.
Gregg: What have the results/feedback been from your ski clients so far? Any metrics or stats you can share?
Brandon: We just launched a client-installable model 3 months ago, so prior to that we did all the installations ourselves, which put our focus on California over the last 2 years. As an annual lease model, we have never lost a client and continue to add ski resorts in California. We take a lot of pride in this as we have worked hard to develop new ways to leverage content that is not dictated solely by whether it snows or not.
When it is snowing or there is a blue-bird day it is easy to create buzz and engagement. New creative ways all the other times to keep the brand in front of customers is what we strive to accomplish. We are seeing images performing upwards of 200% better then the average content posts and clickthroughs to the camera page as low as .05 cent. Every client is different and we measure and track everything.
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To quickly wrap this up I want to clarify one thing. When Brandon says clickthroughs cost .05 cent, he really does mean 1/20th of a cent.
That number is "(camera cost / camera views)" and is not only an incredibly impressive number on it's own, but a very telling stat that they measure to such a granular level and can prove their model so clearly.
Definitely worth a look.
Gregg: Let's move onto this latest campaign; The Aspen Way. Maybe we can start by deconstructing it a bit. In one of Aspen's recent campaigns you focused on sets of words/values - mind, body, spirit - and have done so again in this effort. Talk a bit about the words used in this campaign and why that approach is what you've build this on?
Christian: When we set out last winter to create The Aspen Way it was a direct response to our CEO Mike Kaplan’s op-ed, ‘We’re Still Here.’ The timing was right to take a stand and get more political with our brand communications but we honestly had no clue how much it would resonate in these crazy times we’re living in. Building a campaign around the tenants of – Love, Respect, Unity, and Commit – was a natural in that we’ve always been a values-driven company focused on climate activism and social justice. Installing the words on the mountain in iconic locations allowed us to literally proclaim from the mountaintops what we stand for and create some amazing visuals in the process. What we do behind the scenes to express our values and do the right thing as a company is where the campaign really comes to life. Ultimately, we want everyone to know they’re welcome in Aspen no matter who they are or which side of the political fence they sit on.
Gregg: Talk a bit more about Aspen's willingness to take firm stances based on their beliefs and value, especially on political things. I think Mike recently wrote another about mexican tourists avoiding aspen because of trump. Is that idea of standing up for what you believe in something you see in Aspen's demographic that actually becomes part of the message you hope will resonate or more about be true to yourself?
Christian: The recent Wall Street Journal op-ed was submitted to raise awareness that President Trump’s xenophobic rhetoric is having a backlash on tourism, particularly from Mexico, which constitutes an important demographic for many ski resorts in Colorado. The Aspen community has always been about inclusiveness and that notion stands true today and is reflected in who we are as a company. There is a longstanding culture of acceptance here dating back to the first Gay Ski Week in the 70’s and being the acknowledged leader in climate activism long before it reached critical mass.
Gregg: Going back to the genesis, Mike wrote that original in December last year if my googling is accurate, how soon after did the ideas start to click? I saw the word "commit" was spelled out in physical letters in the spread you tweeted, did you already have much of the concept in place by then? Walk us through the timeline a bit from Mike's op-ed to now.
Christian: We were several concepts into campaign planning with our agency Karsh Hagen before Mike’s op-ed and didn’t feel like they nailed it. They were inspired by the op-ed over the Christmas holiday and came back to us with the vision for the world installations. It resonated immediately and the response from ‘We’re Still Here’ confirmed we were on the right track. We then worked with The Public Works to build and install the 3D letters followed by shoots last spring. We kept the project mysterious even though a lot of locals saw the installations and shared them socially. It was my honor to carry the ‘C’ during the RESPECT shoot on Highland Bowl which was super cool.
Recently, I became a licensed real estate agent in Utah. It was a logical move given all of the time I was spending with incoming families helping them find property and understand the merits of the area. These interactions with families made me realize that my team and I, after seven wonderful winter and summer seasons entertaining guests visiting Eagle Point Resort, had successfully created a place that people wanted not only to visit, but to make a home. Thus, I became an agent and started Aspen Equity Real Estate to provide buyers and sellers of real estate in the Eagle Point area with the highest level of professionalism, decades of valuable experience, great customer service, and of course plentiful local knowledge.
Gregg: Talk a little bit about your decision to operate Friday - Monday instead of seven days a week and why that was right for Eagle Point and how the “As You Wish” idea ties into that.
Shane: Never manage the opening of a new ski resort from your desk in New York City is one of the most important takeaways in my story. I initially hired several "experts" from the ski industry who, despite my incredulity, insisted that Eagle Point should operate 7 days a week "if it wants to be a destination resort".
I went with conventional wisdom my first year, which was a banner snow year, but was too early for seven days at this location. The long weekend did well even in the first year but the resort was scantily populated during midweek. It was obvious to the naked eye that I wouldn't last long in this business operating a seven days a week resort at this stage of its existence.
In the summer between winter 1 and winter 2, I remember the moment it "clicked" with me that I had figured out a way to be closed midweek to the public but still have the potential to make more money than on our busy weekends with the "As You Wish" idea. I knew that the marginal cost of operation was still well within the budget that a 100-200 person group would consider a great value to have an entire mountain and its resources privately for a day and night. The "As You Wish Experience" was born around that revelation.
Gregg: A few resorts have offered similar whole-mountain rentals before, but I love that you have a brand and some collateral in place for yours. How big of a role will this program play in your overall marketing mix this season?
Shane: As You Wish is the fastest growing segment of our business. We have already hosted the prototype As You Wish Experience when the organization, Love Your Melon chose Eagle Point as the venue for their Apex Experience, in which 200 of their brand ambassadors converged on Eagle Point for a mind-blowing, one-of-a-kind event.
A ten week stretch during the 2014/15 ski season at MRG.
For each day, you can take the weather code and see what the model predicts, then compare that prediction to the actual ticket sales. This shows if business is performing better or worse than expected for the conditions. Season after season, I continue to be surprised by how closely the model predicts actual sales.
You can even take the model a step further and use it as a planning tool: looking at weather forecasts, managers can use the model to better anticipate what business levels will be a few days out, and can make sure they have the right level of staff. The main reason why the model works is because it’s not complicated, simplifying the weather into a numerical ranking and looking at its direct correlation to ticket sales.
Gregg: When we first talked on the phone you mentioned that rain has the biggest impact on this model. Without divulging your secret sauce, talk a little bit about not only how things are weighted, but how you find those weights.
Andrew: The rankings or weather codes are all about how desirable a day is for skiing and how likely people are to come buy tickets. Weather, temperature, snow conditions, and open terrain all factor in. You can think of the codes as a scale from least desirable to most desirable.
Rain days are probably the easiest since they’ll always get the lowest ranking. A powder day with at least a foot of snow and no wind-hold is the opposite end of the scale and will get the highest ranking. For everything in between, it’s a little subjective. Great snow conditions with 20-below-zero wind chills will rank lower than a day with fair snow conditions but sunshine and temps in the 30s, simply because more people would rather ski on the day with better weather.
It’s also important to look at the days in sequence: we know that a snowstorm on Thursday will translate to a busy Saturday. MRG’s general manager, Jamey Wimble, has been the person ranking every ski day for the past 20 years, so there’s good consistency in those rankings.
Gregg: One of the ironic things about this model is that in an industry of corporate skiing and bigger and bigger money, MRG was the innovator. Why do you think it was a ski area like Mad River that made this happen?
Andrew: MRG is a unique place that attracts a lot of passionate people who really care about seeing the ski area and the cooperative ownership succeed. Everyone from web designers to foresters and accountants to painters have volunteered their expertise, and the ticket model is one such example. Deri Meier, one of the founders of the co-op, a former UVM business professor, and a retired corporate executive, first developed it with his son two decades ago.
I think MRG was lucky to have someone with that kind of experience who looked at ticket sales both from an outside business perspective but also as a passionate skier. There are lots of talented business people skiing and snowboarding at every mountain across the country, but MRG’s co-op and its spirit of volunteerism are what made this ticket model happen.
Gregg: The reason I wanted to talk to you was, of course, you're recent decision to turn this into a service you could offer other areas. Beyond just the numbers, what are ski areas really getting when they work with you? Is it smarter decisions? Is it a better understanding of actual performance? Something else?
Andrew: My goal is to offer ski areas all of those things. I love to dig into numbers and look for trends, identify what business segments are growing or declining, and figure out ways to be more successful. I believe that having good analysis and a strong understanding of a ski area’s business will lead to smarter, data-driven decisions. Using a model like Mad River’s can help ski areas better understand their business’s real performance regardless of the whims of the weather, better equipping them to maximize their success whether the snow cooperates or not.
As a consultant I hope to help ski areas of all sizes have the same level of business understanding as the bigger resorts, where they have staff dedicated to budgets, pricing, and analysis. With my varied background in the industry, I can look at the numbers with an understanding of the whole operation, not just skier visits or dollars and cents.
Gregg: If a ski area wanted to give this a go, what are they going to need both in terms of data but also operationally on a daily basis and the type of market they serve to really make this work?
Andrew: Operationally, all a ski area needs to do is track some statistics each day. Ticket data like number of tickets sold and daily ticket revenue are the most important. It’s helpful to know how many of those tickets are from groups or other sources that might not be as weather-driven. If a ski area tracks season pass visits, those could be included too, but it’s not necessary. And then you’d need some weather and operational data to rank the days.
Most of the important information will probably be on the snow report: new snow, temperatures, wind, weather conditions & precipitation, terrain open, lifts open, surface conditions, etc. Any other factors like wind hold, road closures, or special events should also be noted. It’s best to do the weather rankings each day as the season goes along, but looking at snow reports would help ranking older days. I would say 3-4 years of historic data would give me enough to start building a new model for another ski area.
I think this model in its current form works better for day trip areas than for big destination resorts. Day trippers are more likely to make their plans based on weather and conditions, while destination visitors might have planned and paid for their trip months earlier and will ski or snowboard regardless of the weather on a particular day. That’s not to say the model couldn’t be adapted for a destination resort; there would be other factors beyond weather and snow that I’m certain impact their visitation, and it would be interesting to dig into some numbers.
Gregg: Any final words about the model, your services, or this sport we all love?
Andrew: The ticket model has been a great tool for Mad River Glen and I think other ski areas could find it really useful too. I’m also available to help ski areas with a variety of other projects: analyzing ticket yield, building customized reports, budget planning, optimizing point-of-sale systems, tracking specials and promotions, creating databases, generating wage-forecasting schedule templates, providing operational advice, etc. – really anything involving numbers.
The ski industry is a tough business and I’ve unfortunately seen several small ski areas close down during my career in the industry. I hope to use my skills to help ski areas of all sizes succeed by giving them the financial tools, data, and analysis to make better strategic decisions. With weather becoming more variable and costs continuing to increase, understanding the numbers behind the business is only going to become more important.
Aside from enjoying the challenge of the industry and the analytical work that I do, my love of skiing is as strong as ever. As I wait for the weather to turn colder in Vermont, I’m dreaming about powder days in the woods and skiing slush bumps in the spring sun.
And yes, my last name really is Snow!
For more info visit Snowmetrics Consulting:
snowmetricsconsulting.com
Growing
At the time he was part of the IT department. Among other things, his duties involved taking pictures on the hill, scanning the negatives, and and uploading the resulting photos to the site. He wore a lot of hats and helped build the foundation of Boyne’s digital strategy.
Quickly, predictably, Dan got better and better and better at his job.
Now, if I were to write the rest of the story based on the typical path, the next chapter would have something to do with using his success at Boyne to land a bigger and better job out west. Perhaps he’d be a Marketing Director now. Or VP. Maybe even CMO.
But Dan didn’t leave. He didn’t move up. He stayed.
I should be clear that Dan has just as much drive and enthusiasm for marketing as any one of us - maybe more. Talking heads might think he’s not “following his passion” but nothing could be further from the truth. In the sixteen years since he joined Boyne, his role has constantly evolved as his love of what he does has translated into new skills and expertise that have kept Boyne in lock step with quickly changing marketing tactics.
In fact, a new title is coming soon because of how good he’s gotten at some of those aspects of his job, putting him in a perfect place to make the most of marketing trends (like email).
So Dan’s not complacent or indifferent, he just sees things differently. He sees reasons and benefits and priorities that, quite simply, we don’t.
Benefits
Let’s start with those benefits.
Every resort plays the marketing game by slightly different rules. These rules are written by markets and budgets and constraints and team size and, of course, the mountain itself. And like any set of rules, it takes time to progress from learning to understanding to mastering.
What’s typical, however, is that we tend to leave somewhere short of the mastery phase. The learning curve is steep and exciting at first, but a year or two later when things flatten out, so does our interest in what we now think of as a daily grind. But if our potential job effectiveness is a 1-10 scale, this means we’re only peaking at maybe a 7 or 8. And when we arrive at our next career stop, we’re back at a 1.
Dan, however, is a 10.
He is a master of Boyne’s message, the processes, and, often overlooked, the operational side that always accompanies any new product or pass or promotion. The nuances of execution that often elude a recent hire are second nature to Dan.
Deeper
But stopping at that level of introspection isn’t worthy of this story, because as great as it sounds to be better at your job, we all know what Dan has given up along the way.
In a word; prestige.
Go to a marketing conference and it’s not the managers who get the glory, it’s the directors. The VPs. They sit on the panels, they hold the mic, they get nods and handshakes from a standing-room-only crowd. As much as we don’t talk about this, the desire to earn an important, prestigious title is omnipresent. It’s baked into our DNA.
Dan felt that same tug on his own pride.
But when we feel these tugs, we never stop to truly ask ourselves, “Why?” I think the difference between Dan and most marketers is his ability to honestly, sincerely answer that question.
Tradeoffs
Let’s back up a bit. In college, Dan had met and fallen in love with the woman who is now his wife.
By this time, kids had come along. Family had moved to town - also from downstate. His parents, still in Metro Detroit, had purchased a cottage just downt he road. The stuff we all say “really matters” - the family, the friends, the lakes, the slopes - was right there, just around the corner.
Another tradeoff we often fail to measure accurately is the mental weight of responsibility.
The higher you climb the ladder, the more you are on the hook for results. Sleepless nights are more common, being in the moment is mentally competing against deadlines and quotas still simmering between your ears, leaving the office at 5pm gets more difficult, and time with those kids and friends and lakes and slopes slowly shrinks.
See what I’m getting at?
Dan knew where he wanted to be, he knew who he wanted to be there with, and he knew that a glamorous title wouldn’t get him closer to that place. Why?
Because he was already there.
Conversations
When I think about my life and where I want to be, I can’t help but think of a small handful of deeply insightful conversations I’ve had over the years. In every case, our cultural standards would place the jobs these people hold much "lower" than mine.
But whether it was that strawberry farmer in central New York or the old cowboy sitting next to me outside a Walmart in Idaho, I found myself walking away knowing, without a doubt, that these people had figured out something I don’t yet understand.
That’s how I feel about Dan Tosch.
Dan is an incredible marketer, but he doesn’t have a fancy title. No, he has something much, much better.
Following college I became a journalist and then worked in advertising agencies as a brand strategist in Sydney and New York. When I came home to Australia in 2013 I felt it was time to do something I loved. It was while sitting at my desk during yet another late night at my old job and on a facebook chat with my ski buddy in Denver, that the concept of Scout was born.
Gregg: Imagine we're on the lift and three towers before I ask you, "So, what's Scout exactly?" What's your 30 second response?
Sarah: Scout is a cross between an online skiing guidebook, a magazine and a travel agency. We see everything for ourselves and do our own write ups so what you get is detailed, honest and independent information by reading our reviews and/or talking to our booking specialists. We make sure you get exactly the right resort and hotel for your needs, and make the process easy and enjoyable.
Gregg: Speaking of books, that's one thing that caught my eye about Scout. At a time when entrepreneurs are scrambling to build apps, you send every guest a physical, printed guide. What's the story behind that strategy?
Sarah: I need to work hard to differentiate Scout as it’s a competitive marketplace. And everything I do on Scout I try to think back to what I would want when I was taking ski trips as a regular consumer. There’s something neat about getting a physical (old-school) guidebook in the mail prior to your trip with all the information you need for that resort, plus some insider tips to help you find some local favorites. It gets you excited and helps you plan. Then you can take that book with you and use it throughout the trip.
Apps definitely have their place, but I felt that having it printed in a pocket sized book was more unique and useful. My customers love them and I have people begging to buy them, but they’re exclusively a gift for people that book via Scout. It’s turned out to be one of the most loved and most talked about parts of the brand.
Gregg: That's awesome, I've seen a similar response to print materials recently. Let me back up a little bit and ask more about the way you visiting every location in person. What's the strategy on those trips? Are they comped, are you interviewing locals, how long do you stay, etc.? What's the game plan to make sure a trip provides everything you need for a physical guidebook and online listing?
Sarah: Prior to starting the business and when I was living in New York I skied a lot out west. All my friends knew I had been to a few places and would ask me for advice about where to stay, eat, drink, ski etc. I was sending these long detailed emails back and that was when I realised there was very little independent and trustworthy information out there. I felt that was integral to the business so started travelling around all the resorts and hotels to review them.
Some people think I'm a ski bum and I just travel the world skiing. It’s actually bloody hard work! I visit around 5-8 properties each day (my record was 12 in one day) and I’ll work all night. Some of the hotels are comped, some are discounted, some are full price. I never let that affect my reviews (in fact some that have been comped haven’t made it on the site) and I move between resorts quickly so that I can cover more places. I always try to chat to locals, get their tips and next year I’ll be starting a new section for each resort with tips as told by a local.
Of course, it’s important that I ski the mountain so I can explain it in my own words and usually my ski tickets are comped which is nice. What’s been interesting is that because the Scout model covers editorial and sales, the resort marketing teams can get confused as to who should be looking after me (PR or sales teams or both). I don’t mind that it confuses them… it proves that I’m doing something different.
Gregg: Speaking of differentiation, how has that first-hand knowledge helped set yourself apart from competitors?
Sarah: It’s my biggest point of differentiation. When I start talking to customers (either on the phone or via email) they’re like “wow, you know your stuff”. I love talking to people about their trips and sometimes I’m the one on the call getting more excited than they are! I went to MTS for the first time this year and saw how most of the other ski travel agents learn about the hotels and resorts… getting sales pitches across a desk in a conference room. It made me proud of what I’ve done and confident about the business model.
I’m not saying that all travel agents don’t have first hand experience as a lot of them do Fam trips which is great. I’m also not bagging MTS at all - I think it’s an excellent concept and serves a great purpose, I got a lot out of it. But nothing quite beats having a wealth of first-hand knowledge. I am pretty sure that not one other travel agent out there has seen 525 properties in 75 resorts!
Gregg: I think that combination of hard work and personal visits really is unique. That's awesome. So aside from putting out an awesome product with great service, what can a resort do to maximize their visibility through your efforts? Or is the lack of resort influence a key element of your model?
Sarah: I’m open to resorts inviting me to visit and helping with the trip, but they can’t do anything to maximize their visibility on the review part of scoutski.com or in Scout newsletters, nor can they affect what I write (though I always work with them to make sure facts are correct and content is up-to-date). I had a well-known resort whose sales contract stipulated that they had to approve all content in any brochure or website. Fortunately they respect what I’m doing and made exception to the rule for Scout.
Aside from the reviews, I’m always looking for new story ideas for the magazine and for social media posts, so it is possible for resorts to get more exposure that way.
Gregg: Anything else worth mentioning about your model, what's coming, or resort travel in general?
Sarah: The business model will no doubt morph and change in the future. One big advantage of running your own business is that you can be agile and make changes quickly according to what consumers want and need, adopting new technologies and just making the product and service better. I’m looking forward to travelling to some new resorts this season and re-visiting some old ones. I’ll definitely be going back to Japan to continue to expand my offering there, but the rest I haven’t planned yet. I always try to take a few days off from scouting to do some ski touring - I’d love to do that in Norway this season.
More info:
http://scoutski.com
Her blogging wins continued with the launch of Snowmamas.
Born from the realization that mothers were coming to the resort but not skiing (a lesson learned from personally helping them find ski school in the morning on her way to work), she made it her mission to get them back on snow and participating fully in the family’s skiing experience.
Of all the successes she had at PCMR, she may be most proud of this one. And rightly so. Few people have done more than Krista to put the ski marketing spotlight back on moms and the decision-influencing power they hold. Much of the resort blogging you see today is patterned on principles and lessons from Snowmamas.
A Moment
All of these efforts, Snowmamas very much included, did not go unnoticed and Krista quickly became a regular at industry conferences.
On one such occasion at NSAA, three young women approached her to say thank you.
They explained that at their resort every woman who had started a family ended up leaving. There simply wasn’t support. They couldn’t make it work. Family and career became an either/or choice and these young women worried their fate was the same.
But then they saw Krista. A successful woman who was both a mom and a resort executive. To them, she became living proof that it was possible.
Their Story, Her Story
She didn’t take that moment or role lightly. And as the months and years went on, she thought often of those young women as she saw a similar scene play out across the industry.
Most of all, however, she saw this play out in her own story.
Leadership at POWDR and PCMR had been phenomenal to Krista. John Cumming, Jenni Smith, and the entire team made her success possible at work and at home. For that she will be forever grateful. But after years of long days and weeks at the office and missing milestones at home, it became harder to keep herself going. In Krista’s ever optimistic words, she had begun to “lose her sparkle.”
A new position with POWDR provided new challenges with the same incredible support for her peers and employer, but the travel eventually outweighed the excitement and Krista soon found herself closer than ever to a breaking point.
She thought about those other moms struggling, she thought about herself, she thought about whether it was time for a change. Around and around she went until that day in the car with her son.
When he wondered who was who.
And she decided it was time.
The Next Chapter
As I’ve followed and learned more about Krista’s story, two thoughts come to mind.
First, is awe. Being a resort marketer is tough. Being a mom is even tougher. Doing both at such a high level for nearly a decade and a half? That’s ridiculously impressive and speaks to both Krista’s abilities as well as POWDR and PCMR’s culture.
But my second reaction is concern. Because I can’t help but wonder how many Krista Parrys are out there that didn’t have that belief and support. That did have to choose between motherhood and marketing. That couldn’t find a balance. The idea that such a massive, talented segment of the workforce is struggling to even consider plying their skills to our trade is worrying in the face of already tall odds.
For 15 years Krista’s example was for the moms who were trying to make their careers work. Today, she’s helping the rest.
That business she started with her sister, aptly named SisterUp, helps moms be that mother they hope to be while finding something they’re good at and building a business around those strengths. Once again, Krista is leading by example. The format shouldn’t surprise either: small groups where she can connect with every mother at a personal, genuine level.
To Krista I say “thank you.” For her hard work, for her example, for her friendship, and for her lasting influence on resort marketing.
To the rest of us I ask a question: what are we going to do today and tomorrow to make sure that the next generation of Kristas have even better odds of success than she did?
Best of luck, Krista. But, knowing you, I don’t think you’ll need it.
I began skiing at 8 years old and now in my 30’s, I spotted The Responsibility Code on the back of a trail map and thought - “I’ve never seen this before! I wonder how else ski areas promote safety?” After looking into it a bit more, I ended up coming up with a few characters, Guy Skis and Betsy Boards and had them illustrate what each of the 7 Responsibility Code’s looks like. I also included a handful of games and puzzles centered around safety messaging. The next step was to become a Supplier Member with NSAA and attend my first tradeshow where I had grand plans to have my new Responsibility Code Coloring Book welcomed with open arms! It didn’t quite go down like that. Imagine if you will, walking around as a Briefcase Attendee trying to break into “Red Badge” conversations to wow folks to my new coloring book. Thankfully Tim White, the then Education Director for NSAA (Thanks Tim!!) introduced me around to key individuals and I was on my way!
Gregg: How’d that first season go?
Senan: That first season, I was able to get 25 resorts on board with custom covers imprinted with their logo on the front and contact info on the back. I had a run of about 125,000 coloring books that season! Today, that coloring book is still available as an updated Mountain Safety Coloring Pages and delivered as a .PDF with all pages customized with logos / contact info. Resorts can print and use only what they need, when they need them; even specific sections like Your Responsibility Code, Smart Style / ATML / Environmental and more.
Additionally, that same year, I landed my first Base Area Map project for Mount Snow! Which has been the forte of North Pole Design ever since. It’s crazy what getting fired will do for you!
Gregg: How did you land that trail map gig with Mount Snow? Was that something you pitched or had dreamed about doing?
Senan: At that first NSAA trade show, I had happened to meet the then-Marketing Director of Mount Snow and we talked about the Responsibility Code Coloring Book, as well as what other types of design services I could provide. At that time, I had been designing spot illustrations for Powder Magazine and upon sharing a few designs, I was asked if I thought I could design a map of their Base Area. My answer was of course, Um YES!! This was before Google Earth, Google Maps, etc. so it was all based on their existing top-down schematic map that just showed the footprints of their buildings; so with an on-site visit and many reference photos, I went home and hit the drawing board. Back then I was using a combination of hand-drawn assets brought into Photoshop and creating everything in layers. Thus the beginning and evolution of where we are now.
On a side note - Around this time, I had heard about a design contest through Powder Magazine to design their new Web Logo. The Grand Prize was a week long heli-ski trip to Valdez, AK. With no limits to how many you can submit, I had 15 days till the end of the contest and treated it like a multi-vitamin! One-a- day!
Gregg: And, did you win?
Senan: About a month later while working on the Mount Snow map, I got a call from Powder letting me know that one of my designs had been chosen and would I like to go on an all-expense paid trip to AK for a week of heli-skiing? Whoa. Trip of a lifetime! We were able to fly everyday, except one, where we went cat skiing instead. Just pure insanity! I met some of the coolest people on the planet there and had an amazing experience tearing up ridiculous terrain in the Chugach Mountains. Thanks Powder!!
Gregg: I’ll move on quickly to contain my jealousy. On your next sales trip were you selling trail maps only?
Senan: Indeed, the next tradeshow, I set up a booth and promoted both the Responsibility Code Coloring Book and Base Area and Trail Map Design. From that show, I believe I was able to secure a handful more mapping projects and I was on my way!
Gregg: And the coloring books were still going strong?
Senan: Funnily enough, or not really at the time, when going to renew existing coloring book clients, as I was sure I would be starting out with the original 25 and building off them; it turns out many resorts had over ordered and had a bunch still sitting in boxes. So out of the 25, I think I renewed something like 8 and added a few more.
Ultimately I came to the realization that the books really weren’t being used as I’d hoped and decided to move from a physically printed book to a digital download where the resort receives a .pdf of their customized coloring pages and can now print and use only what they need, whenever they need them. It’s turned out much better, more effective and obviously less wasteful for resorts. Which is great, as it relates directly to the environmental and recycling section of the coloring pages :)
Gregg: Talk a bit about trail maps and where we are. Is the future digital and interactive? Will we always have paper maps?
Senan: I think we will always have paper trail maps. They are so convenient to have on-hand when you need them; versus taking out your phone with no glove; praying you don’t drop it off the lift and navigating to the map on the resort’s site. The print-runs have and will continue to go down; but I do think we’ll always have them.
As far as the future of trail maps are concerned and the format? There is amazing technology on the horizon, that I think will begin to be adapted. Interactive mapping that is mobile friendly / responsive is being offered and can be incredibly useful ( NPD of course offers a super robust interactive mapping platform :) Both from a Marketing side and Consumer usage standpoint, interactive mapping offers a whole new level of communication. Marketers now have an opportunity to show off their resort using big, beautiful images; as well as video PER icon that they drop on the map background. So whether it be a trail map or Base Area Map, resorts can apply video to each icon! Additionally, they can apply Special Offers to their maps at any time and turn it into another customer touch point and ROI source.
Also upcoming tech includes iBeacon technology, Augemented and Virtual Reality; all of which can really enhance the customer experience on a variety of levels. Amazing stuff! I always keep an eye on the tech space and see what can be applied to better provide resort customers with the best overall experience!
Gregg: What does all that mean to the consumer?
Senan: From a consumer point of view, they can be on their way to the mountain and see what’s open, what’s been groomed in the last 24 hours, what’s had snowmaking; even what the latest terrain park layout is (because the terrain park crew has updated the map by dragging park features into their new locations and published). So the level of information at the consumer’s fingertips is almost unlimited and can be updated at a moment’s notice. So digital and interactive is here to stay and evolve.
Gregg: And what does that mean for your methods?
Senan: As far as actual Trail Map Design is concerned - traditionally painted map assets will always be sought after as the preferred style. It’s beauty and landscape design is undeniable. Especially from the Master himself, James Niehues. I’ve been one of his biggest fans since I started skiing! That said, I tend to design trail maps in vector-based digital formats with layers upon layers of artwork.This allows for ease of future editing when a resort cuts new trails, opens up whole sections of the mountain, adds new buildings, etc. I do try to maintain a high level of terrain and landscape design and detail; and am even playing around with hybrid techniques blending painted components with digital elements.
Stay tuned there :)
Gregg: Will there ever be another James Niehues or Kevin Mastin?
Senan: Mr. Niehues will always hold the highest rank of trail map designers, in my eyes. His work is and will always be something to aspire to. Kevin also has created some beautiful work! As far as there being another artist to best that of James Niehues, I would simply say - Nope. Maybe a different style or technique, but for traditionally painted maps, no-one even comes close.
Hiking Geek
Lyndon’s mix of offline experience with online hobbies had started in forums, but when he found that his hiking photos didn’t quite fit the classic car boards he frequented, he decided to give them a place of their own.
A bit of shared hosting and a Wordpress install later, HikingGeek.com was born.
But it wasn’t until a spike in traffic following a gear review (of something he already owned) that he saw a way to truly grow his audience. Reaching out to more gear brands, his list of reviews began to grow along with his traffic.
Another Reason to Grow
One day a friend mentioned to Lyndon that a hiking boot company was looking for ambassadors.
With two months before the deadline and missing a few checkboxes on their application, Lyndon threw himself headlong into social media, something with which he had little prior experience. Before long he’d created accounts on nearly every site and was doing anything he could to extend his reach to these platforms.
Two months later his follower counts had grown just enough to tip the scales and the ambassador label was his.
Confident, additional ambassadorships soon followed and Lyndon’s project was showing more and more promise.
Back to New Hampshire
When Lyndon and his family arrived in New Hampshire, HikingGeek was coming off another uptick in traffic, but his most valuable asset wasn’t the thousands of visitors who were now coming to his site, it was the skills he’d learned along the way.
Starting from scratch, it turns out, had taught Lyndon things that you sometimes miss in a traditional job where your role is limited and there’s always help an agency or freelancer or cubicle away.
He’d learned a CMS from top to bottom.
He’d learned about hosting and being ready for traffic.
He’d learned graphic design and Photoshop.
He’d learned how to build a brand from scratch.
He’d learned how to come up with new ideas on demand.
He’d learned how to write (and fix) HTML.
He’d learned how to write engaging content.
He’d learned how to identify successful strategies and replicate them.
He’d learned how to build and engage social media audiences.
So as he started to put out resumes for IT jobs, he began applying for marketing positions as well.
Interestingly, when he needed to prove he could do one marketing skill or another, his claims didn’t rely on references or a resume, because with a single URL he could let HikingGeek quickly make his case.
Okemo
And that’s exactly what happened at Okemo.
The job called for someone who could handle their CMS. Check. The position needed someone who could design graphics for ads and emails. Check. And blog posts too. Check Someone would could jump into the HTML when needed and wrangle social profiles and photography. Check. Check. And...yes..check.
Even Lyndon, looking back, admits that the main reason he got the job was because of HikingGeek. Not just because of the skills, but because of the physical proof of those skills in the site and audience and brand he had built.
With two energetic boys and a full-time job as the Internet Marketing Manager at Okemo, the posts on HikingGeek are less frequent than they used to be, but the influence and benefits to both Lyndon and Okemo continue. When he needs to design something, he often remembers a PSD file he can use as a starting point. When he has a new idea, he can test it in his sandbox so Okemo doesn’t bear the risk. When they need to reach out to an influencer, he’ll know how to talk to them because, well, he is one.
A Case for Side Projects
I’ve often attempted to make a case for side projects, but it wasn’t until I met Lyndon at Insight a few weeks ago that I found someone who was such clear, living proof of their benefits.
To Lyndon, I say congrats for a successful reward to his years of hustle. To you, I ask a question: what are you going to build? What are you going to do with a little of that free time of yours to become better at what you do? Not just for your employer now, but to create better opportunities for yourself down the road.
Think of it this way. Where would Lyndon be today if he hadn’t started Hiking Greek in 2013? A great IT job in Manchester? Flipping burgers in Lincoln? We’ll never know, but we know where he wouldn’t be.
Okemo.
Back to 2004. I was a Captain in the Air Force, getting ready to meet my promotion board for Major. Anytime an office accepts a new rank, it comes with an extended time commitment to the military. I would have pinned on Major at about 8 years, owed at least 4 years more for that promotion and could retire at 20 years… if I stay in 12, shouldn’t I just do 20 and retire? If I do that, will I be miserable for 10 years just to get a retirement check? So for me, it really was a cross roads. Do I get out of the military now (after 4 years of military school and 8 years of active duty), find a new career… or stick it out and potentially be unhappy for 12 years of my life just to get a retirement.
Gregg: And the the military wasn’t just a recent part of your life, correct?
Sean: The military was definitely nothing new to me. I grew up in a military family. Bounced around mostly the east coast and europe as a child, only living in a place for about 3 years, before moving to the next. The typical, “army brat” story. My dad retired from the Army after a highly decorated career in the Green Berets, the army’s special forces...just think of every hard core military movie you watched in the 80s ;) I had family in every major conflict you can think of WWII, I, Korea, etc.
Gregg: Was there any family pressure or personal pressure or financial pressure to stick it out and stay the original course?
Sean: I think there’s always pressure when looking at a major change in lifestyle. There were a lot of people that thought I was throwing away everything I had worked for. An education at one of the top universities in the US, a stellar military career so far, I was single, owned a house and had a pretty good paycheck coming in. The worst part was I knew I was unhappy, but didn’t really know what my alternative was going to be.
Gregg: So you decide to move on. Why skiing?
Sean: I’ve always loved skiing. My dad was a skier and got my family hooked on it. Some of my earliest memories are from the slopes. Living on the military base in Germany, we had a very active ski club and I got the amazing opportunity to ski all over Europe before I even went to high school. So I guess you could say skiing was in my blood.
My dad started ski patrolling while still in the military. He got me involved when I was in high school and was the Junior Patroller of the Year for the Eastern Division of the National Ski Patrol. I ski raced at the Air Force Academy and one of the biggest reasons I agreed to go to school there was because it was in Colorado.
While stationed in Albuquerque, I got a call from the guy that was my coach from junior high school while living in Germany. He was the ski school director at a place called Angel Fire...about 2.5-3 hours from Albuquerque and wanted to know if I wanted to get back into racing. I said great! And started driving up every weekend in the winter that I could to work as a coach for their race team.
Gregg: And why graphic design? How does an former cadet find work as a designer?
Sean: The graphic design part was a little more random ;) I have always been interested in art, especially photography. I took art classes in school, was a photographer for the yearbook, did independent study classes and more. What I found about my “art” was I was pretty good at replicating things, but not as much creating my own from scratch. I had done some architectural drawing work with CAD, had started to learn photoshop on my own for my photography and definitely picked up the computer side of it quickly.
Gregg: What was your first step after you made that decision?
Sean: After I finally made the decision to leave the Air Force, I decided to move to Panama to live with my uncle and cousins down there to do a little soul searching. I had a full time coaching gig waiting for me at Angel Fire that winter, but had most of the summer and fall off so I headed south. I coached that next winter and at the season was stuck with another decision of what to do. I could go back to Panama for another summer and work with my uncle...and trust me, the idea of skiing all winter and surfing all summer was pretty appealing. But there was definitely a side of me that was still looking for more. I couldn’t quite leave the structure of a lifetime of military tendencies to the wind just yet ;)
I heard through other employees that the marketing office at Angel Fire was looking for some extra help with graphic design. They had an in-house designer, but she was starting to ease her way into retirement. So I jumped up and said I could do the work (even though I wasn’t sure I could). I learned from their designer, called a friend in Denver that was a designer a bunch and just faked the rest ;) That eventually led into more of a full time design position and a part time coaching job to the point where I was doing marketing, design and events year round.
Gregg: Most people that know you will know you from your current gig at Schweitzer. How did that path bring you to Sandpoint, Idaho?
Sean: My best friend and roommate in Angel Fire and I had started to look around outside NM. He had been there for over 10 years, there were some leadership changes happening at the resort and we had just finished the worst winter in recorded history. Sounded like a great reason for a road trip. We spent that whole winter renovating his VW van, loaded up our skis, snowboards and bikes and hit the road. My buddy was originally from Seattle, so we had our sights set on the NW. Our plan was to hit every ski resort town in the NW where we knew someone and hopefully something would pan out.
After a month in Moab...the van broke down ;)... we made it to Ashland, OR. We were staying with the previous ski school director from Angel Fire that was running Mt Ashland at the time. Over beers that night, he told us that a buddy of his was the GM at a place called Schweitzer and they were looking for an events manager. My friend that I was travelling with had been the Angel Fire events manager, so we jumped online, tried to figure out where Schweitzer was and he applied for the job. Our trip progressed, we made it to the Seattle area and hit up Crystal, Baker and Stevens. While there, my friend got a call from Schweitzer for an interview. We decided to drive over and do the interview in person instead of over the phone. Got a chance to check out Sandpoint, hike the mountain (it had just closed for the season) and check out the local scene. After a couple days there, we continued on our trip. About a week later, we had just left Jackson, he got a call with the job offer. We both looked at each other and nodded. “That place was pretty sweet...let’s do it.” I didn’t even have a job prospect yet, but we went home, packed up our stuff and made the move.
Gregg: If I remember right, you had to be a bit persistent to finally land a job with the resort. How long did that take and what were you doing for work until then?
Sean: Ha ha, I guess that’s one way to put it ;) But they say good things come to those who wait. As I said, I didn’t really have a job prospect when we made the decision to move, but I was able to get a job right away with the trail/slopes crew. My intention was to work on the bike trails and try and recreate the success we had at Angel Fire (the year prior, we put on the UCI World Cup). I spent a couple of days doing bike trails then got pulled to work on winter slopes crew. They gave me a truck, a propane torch and a few bags of grass seed. My mission was to work my way down a couple of new slopes, burn the slash piles and reseed the ski runs that had recently been cut. That winter, I tried to get a position with the local race team, Schweitzer Alpine Racing School. SARS seemed interested, but weren’t going to hire someone they hadn’t seen ski… made sense to me. So i did what every ski bum does, got a job tuning skis during the day and slung drinks in the bar at night.
Gregg: How long did that last?
Sean: I did the seasonal thing for a few years, all the while hoping an opening would present itself in the marketing office. Tuned skis, wrenched on bikes, built trails, poured drinks, supervised the rental shop...applied for a graphic design job - didn’t get it. Applied for another marketing job - didn’t get it. But the persistence paid off, another opening came up and I got it - graphic designer for the resort. A year or two later, the manager left and I got that position. A year or two after that, the Director left and I got that position. Schweitzer has been great promoting from within and given me some great opportunities that i’ve jumped on with everything I had.
Gregg: When you look back at this path of spending time out of the country and seeing the world, of the AIr Force culture of discipline, and the fruit of being persistent and working hard before seeing success, do you feel those dots are connected?
Sean: I would like to think so. As much as my life seems to have two distinct chapters, it’s really hard to imagine it any way other than the way it’s been. Each job i had or decision i made, somehow led to the next one… and so on. Travelling and moving my entire young life made me realize how much I loved the Sandpoint area without actually living here long. I also appreciate everything i have now because i’ve seen so much other stuff - both good and bad. I still love to travel and get the “bug” or the “itch” to hit the road, but for the first time in my life I have a sense of community, a true sense of “home” and am surrounded by an extraordinary place and an amazing group of people.
Gregg: Big picture aside, do you see your unique experiences influencing your day-to-day work or style as a marketing director?
Sean: I think my style as a director stems from a true love of skiing, snowboarding, mountain life and the outdoors in general. I don’t think I would be in marketing if it was for another product - tissues, or corn flakes, or prescription meds. I just wouldn’t have the passion… it would have to be in the outdoor industry.
When it comes to my experiences, i think the biggest thing is they put my life in perspective. I’ve seen some pretty rough times, and been in some pretty stressful spots… now, it’s all smooth sailing. Everyone I work with says I always seem even-keeled, get along with everyone and never seem to get worked up. Even the worst of days now don’t come close to some of the days i’ve already had, so i try to keep things pretty low stress. When you wake up every day in this place, go to work 25 feet from a chairlift and are tasked with convincing people how awesome skiing, riding and mountain life can be, I say bring it :)
Gregg: To wrap up, any advice for those reading this who may be working in that rental shop or hoping for the “director” title one day?
Sean: Keep at it. There’s no job too small...especially if you want to make it to the top. I think the best bosses i’ve had have done a lot of different things, so they have perspective, they get it.
Be willing to move. The ski industry is a tight nit group and the funnel to the top gets smaller and smaller with opportunities to rise up through the ranks fewer and fewer. I feel lucky that i’ve been able to make a lot of my progression all at one place, but i know that’s not true for many resorts. One of my toughest challenges is having a bright group of motivated, young employees seeking year round/full time work, but don’t have a spot for them.
Love what you do. It’s worth it :)Gregg: Speaking of which, that surprised me when I first learned how young you were. So what did you study in school and why? With your love of lifts, was everyone assuming you'd do something like engineering? Peter: I just turned 27. Email was my friend when I was younger and didn't think anyone would take me seriously. I got Doppelmayr to send me their Worldbook every year and subscribed to SAM as a "ski area student" when I was in middle school to get access to their annual lift survey. My degree is in government. It's what my older brother did and at 18 I wasn't sure what I wanted to do except work at a ski resort. Interestingly, if you read my blog you know that more and more governments around the world are purchasing lifts for public transportation. Gregg: What it is it about lifts, then, that drives a kid in elementary school to build his own database? What that fuels the passion? Can you put your finger on why you love them, or is it just sort of there and you can't shake it? Is there anything else you've ever been this passionate about? Peter: I was always kind of a nerdy kid interested in technology and good at researching things. I'm the type of person who gets on an airplane and finds out what model it is and where it was built. Lifts combine a lot of my favorite things...cool technology, skiing and the mountains. I work at the tram almost every day and when I go home I write my blog about lifts and check out other resorts on the weekends.
Gregg: Favorite 3 lifts in the world and why? Peter: 1. Peak 2 Peak at Whistler. A 3S combines everything good about an aerial tramway with the efficiency of a gondola. Peak 2 Peak holds multiple world records and connects two world-class ski mountains with stunning scenery along the way. 2. Bridger Gondola at Jackson Hole. It's the first lift I ever worked and although the tram gets all the fame, the gondola is a beast of a machine. With 2,700’ of vertical, it can move six tram cars worth of people in 15 minutes. The cabin storage facility that holds the gondolas at night is super cool and something most people never get to see. 3. Mt. Rainier Gondola at Crystal Mountain. A top-to-bottom lift is is a huge positive development at Crystal, where I learned to ski. A 14,000-foot volcano greets you at the top and the snow is usually deep on the way back down. Gregg: For some ski area folks that have spent all day every day around lifts for 30 years, I think sometimes they're surprised that something so common in their world is so novel to others. I've seen you share a few stats about your readership and site visitation that I think are a great illustration of a hidden interest in lifts that many industry people don't realize. Can you share some key stats about your blog? Number of posts, most views on a single post, total pageviews, total monthly etc.? Peter: My blog gets an interesting mix of industry folks, die-hard skiers and people who are just interested in the technology. I'm a year and a half in with 355 posts to date. Readership is growing and a good day sees a couple thousand unique visitors and a good month 75,000 page views. The most for a single post is actually one I wrote recently about Big Sky's bubble six-pack that's under construction. Big Sky shared it on their Facebook page and it has been read over 5,000 times. Anything about lift construction or upcoming expansions does well. I did an interview with Carl Skylling of Skytrac when Leitner-Poma acquired them and that caught a lot of interest.
Gregg: That really is impressive and, again, underscores the huge interest in lifts many folks just don't realize exists. And props on that pace, 355 in a year and a half is incredible. What can resorts do to help your efforts? Is it photos? Is it access? Is it connecting you with the right people? Tech specs? Other? Peter: Every day I work at the J.H. tram I meet people who want to learn how the machine works and take a tour of the motor room. Not everyone is interested but a certain demographic totally is. As far as supporting me, I love when resorts invite me to a lift-related announcement or give me a head's up when a big lift milestone is happening. That is how the recent Big Sky post I mentioned came about, with a simple invitation from the marketing team. They gave me a ride up the hill to watch a helicopter fly lift towers and bought me lunch. Even just sending along some pictures or responding to my emails if I have questions is super helpful. I won't name the resort that detained and questioned me for taking pictures of their lifts! Gregg: What's the goal for both you professionally and the blog? In other words, where do you want to be doing for work in 5-10 years and where do you hope Lift Blog will be when you get there? Peter: I would like to see Lift Blog continue to grow with more people reading and commenting. I started Facebook, Twitter and Instagram accounts that people can follow if they are interested in what's going on in the lift world. Leitner-Poma and Deasonbuilt Manufacturing are my first two advertisers and cover some of the costs of running around to different ski areas, which I am grateful for. Every lift is different and I would love to travel to more places to write about. I have never skied in Europe and want to visit what is really the heart of lift technology and manufacturing in the Alps. I enjoy sharing my enthusiasm about lifts with guests and co-workers at Jackson Hole and I'm not exactly sure what the future will bring. I have gained a lot of valuable experience in mountain operations and made some great connections in the industry through my blog.
Source: Ripping with Roscoe, Kevin Mastin
Out of college, I worked for one of those “Welcome Neighbor” companies, designing vinyl phone book covers littered with ads from local plumbers, car dealers and realtors. It mostly involved typesetting, waxing and pasting up little ads. A highlight of my week would be when the pet shop wanted an image for their ad—instead of using clip art, I could draw a little dog!
My first real break was getting a job for Compugraphic, near Boston, designing typefaces for photo typesetting equipment. These were the very early days of the Mac—literally: Quark 1.0, FreeHand 1.0, PhotoShop 1.0, etc. After 4 years in Boston, creating only vector graphics for the Mac, my wife and I decided to move back home to Colorado, and I nailed my dream job: graphic designer for a ski area - Keystone - very near my home town.
Gregg: What was the first resort trail map you did, when was it, and how did you get that job?
Kevin: Working for Keystone exposed me to ski maps. We were working with Jim Niehues, who I consider “the modern master of the ski trail map.” Jim was updating several of the maps which had been painted by his mentor, Bill C. Brown. Jim painted the artwork, but he did not create the overlays (trail names, lift lines, etc.). This was at the point when some graphic artists were still using press-type, photostats ands acetate overlays. Fortunately, I was already well-versed in creating vector art. So, on my first two maps, Keystone and Arapahoe Basin, Jim painted the art and I did the overlays digitally.
In 1994 Keystone greatly upgraded its mountain biking operation and I got my first opportunity to start a map from scratch—reading the maps, taking the aerial photos, sketching the layout, then painting the mountain—I finally had the chance to paint a widely seen illustration. I worked for Keystone and Vail Resorts until 1997 when I started my own shop.
Gregg: Compared to other art, did you face any surprising or unique challenges when you started painting trail maps?
Kevin: One of the main challenges is presenting the mountain in a way that is intuitive and makes sense to the skier. Map artists are required to “cheat” things around quite bit in order to make things visible. For instance, Keystone comprises three peaks, back-to-back-to-back. The front sides are north-facing and the back sides are south-facing. The resort did not want a map with separate illustrations or insets; they wanted everything in one view. I needed to create "bird’s-eye view" to get everything visible from one angle. It was a stretch, but it worked out.
My most recent map, Loveland, was kind of the opposite of Keystone. Loveland is a large basin with slopes converging into a central base area. Their existing map was two images, a North View and a South View, and their skiers found it difficult to piece together. For this painting I created a panoramic, "fish-eye view.”
Souce: SkiLoveland
I consider these trail maps “illustrations” rather than "fine art.” A trick to all of the maps is that the ski areas can’t really be painted too literally. A few examples. Catwalks can be very flat and virtually invisible when looking at the mountain, so the downward slope is exaggerated and the trails widened. The mountains are never as steep and vertical as the skier perceives, so the elevations are almost always extended upward (plus, the marketing folks like it that way!). Also, the paintings need to accommodate all of the labels (lift lines, trail names, legend, compass, etc.) sometimes the trail name itself is longer than the little patch of snow I’m trying paint.
Tangent, but kind of fun: about twenty years ago, I bought an art print from Warren Miller and got the opportunity to meet him and have him sign the print. He surprised me a bit, by asking me why in the heck we always painted the mountain from the base looking up; why not paint it from the skier’s point of view—from the top looking down? I’m good at visualizing things, but I have no idea how I would do that!
Gregg: I love that combination of digital vectors and painting. Let me wrap that idea into what you said about having to "cheat" a little. There are a lot of people trying to create 3D maps using things like Google Earth but I feel many lack the usability of maps like yours. When you look at the progression of technology and the demands of a trail map, will there always be a need for hand-crafted art in trail map creation? Will digital take over? What do you see?
Kevin: I think there’s room for both styles, although aesthetically, I find the digital maps “cold” and not as enticing. I sell quite a number of my trail maps as signed art prints for people to frame and hang in their homes. I’m not sure how many of the digital maps people feel are attractive enough to do that. The colors in satellite imagery are often a bit odd and need to be heavily doctored. The snow is usually too gray, and if you look closely the trees are often parallel to the ground! I use satellite imagery for reference, but most of what is readily available is captured in the summer time (winter, aerial photography is still the best).
It’s also important to remember the the trail map is not just a functional illustration for navigation, it’s a very important marketing and sales piece. The skies are blue, trees are green, the snow is perfect; it’s the signature image of the resort. The traditional, painted map is not going away anytime soon.
Source: Stray Horse Arts (Kevin Mastin)
Last, I’m often asked about maps in formats for use on a cell phone. Whether it’s a digital or traditional illustration, the map should to be loaded on your device before you hit the slopes. There are so many places in the backcountry where you can’t receive a signal, plus batteries fail much quicker in the cold. So, in defense of the printed map—it is safer; I’m a hiker and climber and I'd would never rely solely on a digital format.
Gregg: And along those lines I wanted to get your thoughts on something. On my desk I have a book with hundreds of ski posters from the last 100 years from all over the world. Whenever I flip through it I feel like each decade had a very unique style of art. Even more, a culture that went along with and was reflected in it. Today, I don't see either. I see very little art. I see very little cohesive ski culture. When you look at ski art over the years, do you see a similar change? Any thoughts on that?
Kevin: That’s a great observation and I definitely agree with you. Think of the volume of vintage ski and travel posters with beautiful illustrations from the turn of the (last) century up until about the 1960s. We have a number of them hanging in our home. Much of the ski art you see today are mimicking the styles from those glory days—I’m not throwing stones, I do it myself.
Where I see the “ski culture” thriving is at the smaller, neighborhood hills. I still feel it in the parking lot at A-Basin and on the deck at Ski Cooper. Skiing has become a very expensive sport and whether you like it or not, it has largely been driven by real estate, and I don’t see that trend changing.
There have been big changes in advertising art in the last 20 years, I’d say mostly driven by the internet, social media, and devices. Photos and videos are quick and cheap and active; illustration is labor-intensive, expensive and static. That said, where you can see the best art being produced is from the younger manufacturers of equipment and apparel. There is some very nice logo and typography work being done. The art is still being created, but it’s not in a magazine or being hung on the dorm room wall, it’s now a t-shirt, a sticker, or the design of a snowboard.
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For more info on Kevin and his art head over to:
kevinmastin.com
The recent news that Milena Regos, Marketing Director at Diamond Peak, was stepping down to move on to her next adventure was a bit surprising. While I haven't had the chance to meet her in person, I've heard only good things about her decade-long tenure in Tahoe. Interested in the highlights and takeaways from Milena's marketing reign, I shot her a handful of questions. Classy as always, she obliged. Here they are:
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SlopeFillers: What is the biggest marketing lesson you learned about the ski industry?
Milena: Two things: customer service and bringing new people to the sport. You need to make sure your guests are happy, had a fantastic time and will return to your ski resort. I'm sure that applies to other industries as well. Without happy customers you don't have a ski resort. Although the ski industry has been growing over the year, too many ski resorts concentrate on growing their market share by taking away skiers/riders from other mountains. At Diamond Peak, we concentrated on bringing new people to the sport and making sure they have a great first time experience. When your guests are happy, they will come back season after season.
SlopeFillers: What is the biggest marketing lesson you learned about social media in general?
Milena: Social media is where people are and how they want to communicate. The reason companies are trying to figure out how to use social media for business purposes is because they understand that traditional marketing has its limitations. Social media continues to grow and evolve and together with mobile is a critical component to a successful marketing strategy. You need to stay on top of all trends, make sure you have a well thought out strategy and use your resources wisely. I realized that to be good at social media I need to concentrate all my time and energy there and hence the move away from Diamond Peak and towards my own social media company with Out&About Marketing. Even for someone passionate about social media I needed more time in the day to do everything at Diamond Peak. Companies should consider hiring someone to be responsible for social and not just taking on more duties among the existing staff. It's a new industry that changes too fast and needs daily attention to do it well.
SlopeFillers: What is the biggest marketing lesson you learned about Twitter?
Milena: Twitter is by far one of my favorite social networks. The biggest lesson I learned is that it's all about relationships on Twitter. You are better off knowing 1,000 people than having 10,000 followers. Meet people, provide valuable content and don't worry about the follower count too much. Companies miss the mark there by just blasting out messages they old way. Twitter only works if you actually listen to what people are saying, engage in conversations, and provide valuable information to your followers all in 140 characters.
SlopeFillers: What is the biggest marketing lesson you learned about Facebook?
Milena: People are on Facebook to have fun, connect with family and friends and live in a world that makes them feel like rock stars. Things that work on Facebook are fun, easy contests, exclusive deals and discounts and valuable information like how much snow you received or if the roads are open. The biggest accomplishment on Facebook for us was winning the Hermes Platinum award in social media by doing a really cool birthday celebration offer. By celebrating people's birthday on Facebook we immediately became their friends and it worked out well for us too.
SlopeFillers: What is the biggest marketing lesson you learned about tahoe?
Milena: Tahoe remains a drive up market and people from the Bay Area are looking for deals. With a tough economy it's still important to make people feel they are getting a good deal. The Bay Area is also very tech savvy so social, video, and mobile should be at the forefront of a successful ski marketing strategy. People want to know the conditions, where you are located and the rates. Tahoe is a very competitive market with many ski resorts so close to each other. Finding a niche that resonates with your customers is crucial. Diamond Peak's positioning with kids and beginners has worked out extremely well and it matches the resort personality.
SlopeFillers: What is the biggest marketing lesson you learned about integrated marketing?
Milena: All marketing efforts need to be going in the same direction and driving the same message. It's super important to have a consistent voice on traditional and new media and to create events and promotions that complement the brand. We concentrated more on kid friendly events and less on hard core terrain park comps because we realized we needed to be consistent with our audience. Find your voice, make sure it works for your brand and then stay consistent on all platforms. You'll still need to modify the message slightly to fit with the specific audience but overall consistency is really important.
SlopeFillers: What was your favorite marketing moment at Diamond Peak?
Milena: Hmmm, I really have too many of them: from talking to customers who tell me what our brand is to the teeth, to helping out operations on a busy day, acting as a model in photo shoots, creating fun special events, strategizing for next season with various vendors, being out with Diamond Pete (Diamond Peak's mascot, a really good looking penguin) and Santa with the kids, or shooting the next kids commercial. If I have to pick one moment, it's being with customers on the mountain- riding the chairlift and talking to them and understanding what drove them to Diamond Peak and why they love the place. That's probably the reason I like social media so much: it's getting the feedback from your customers that you can't get from a TV or a radio spot.
SlopeFillers: What are your plans now?
Milena: I'm planning on concentrating on my own social media and digital company with Out&About Marketing and helping companies in the health& fitness, recreation and outdoor industries connect with people online, transform their marketing efforts and create legendary marketing. When a company provides an outstanding product or service with excellent customer service they are guaranteed to do well in social media and I can point them in the right direction with a well thought out social, digital and mobile strategy. I'm looking forward to having a lot of fun doing this, meeting new people along the way and improving the world in general by creating remarkable marketing that people actually need. I have a lot of work ahead of me but I'm ready for the challenge.
SlopeFillers: What does the future of ski resort marketing look like?
Milena: Connecting with people on social and mobile and providing them the up to date conditions with audio, video, text messages, photos. The technology is there for ski resorts to use it. RFID, QR codes and smartphones has changed the way people consume content, purchase lift tickets and connect with friends on the mountain. Ski resorts need to play catch up with people who are already using this technology. The IT and the Marketing departments will have an even more crucial role in the future. Skiers/riders are extremely tech savvy and they will continue to request that they receive information they way they are used to it. I see exciting times ahead for the ski resort industry!
Even being 2,000 miles removed from the situation when the uproar around Sunshine Village began this last winter, I felt like it was happening just down the road thanks to one thing: social media. Voices from both sides wanted to be heard and smack dab in the middle of this blizzard of opinion was Doug Firby, the communications and marketing guy for Sunshine Village. Now, I have no idea who is right and who is wrong, that is not what this post is about. What's done is done, people have their opinions. What I wanted to know was what Doug had learned from all that had happened and what he hoped to do moving forward.
Let me say that I really appreciate the time Doug put toward these answers. You can tell these aren't the canned sound-bites I sometimes see in interviews, these are genuine. If I were you I'd drop everything and take some notes. Really. This is good stuff.
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SlopeFillers: Doug, tell us a little bit about yourself and your marketing background.
Doug: I am relatively new to marketing. I came to the Communications position at Sunshine Village in July 2008, after working in newspapers on the editorial side for more than 30 years. Except for a few months in Marketing in the 1990s, all that time was editorial. Since I’ve taken on this position, I’ve taken a couple of university level courses in Marketing to provide some additional academic perspective.
Historically, people who work in the news media have adapted very well to Communications jobs. They understand what journalists need, and are able to anticipate those needs well and cater to them.
SlopeFillers: Social media is a tricky space to master these days. What lessons have you learned about social media this last winter that you'll apply with Sunshine Village's profiles going forward?
Doug: My strength has been in traditional media, but I have always had an assistant working in social media during my time at Sunshine. What we learned is that it’s not enough to “dabble” in Facebook, Twitter and other popular social media sites. Posting updates when there is “happy” news, like large dumps of snow, is easy. It’s much more challenging to deal with an angry mob that has heard a narrative that puts your organization in a bad light. Really, it means you have to take social media seriously, and not treat it like it’s some sort of passing fad. Social media is where people have their conversations, and you need to be part of any conversation that involves your organization.
The key things I’ve learned are these:
One of my personal favorite perks of blogging is having the excuse to get in touch with talented people and pick their brains. My latest victim was Dan Carr, an uber-talented ski photographer whose work first came up on my radar after I featured the awesome print ads that Whistler put out last season. With so much photography floating around the marketing world - in print, in social, you name it - I wanted to get a professional's view on what TO do and NOT to do when it comes to your resort's photography needs. If you want more proof of Dan's prowess, swing by his website and view some of his recent commercial assignment work. Awesome. If you ever need photog work, I'd highly recommend him.
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SlopeFillers: Dan, give me the 30 second version of how you got to where you are today, some of the people you've worked for, and what you are best at.
Dan: Getting here was a weird journey, I'm actually from the UK and I studied aerospace engineering at university with an aim to working in the automotive industry. When I finished the degree I took some time out to ski in whistler and I fell in love with the place. While I was there for a winter I got a digital slr and started to take photos of my friends skiing crazy things. Some of them got published in a local magazine and when I saw them printed I thought to myself , you know what.... that's something I could get used to! I set about getting my Canadian residency so I could stay and my whole life's plan did a u turn. Whistler is a great place to start something like that though as there is a huge talent pool of local skiers.
That was 5 years ago and since then I have worked for people like Salomon,Oakley, Atomic, Volkl, Line Skis, Whistler Blackcomb, Grouse Mountain, Scott, Peak Performance, Orage in locations such as Alaska,Japan, Europe, new Zealand and the USA and Canada of course.
I primarily concentrate on shooting Freeskiing, be it big mountain backcountry stuff or urban skiing and big park shoots.
SlopeFillers: The first time I noticed your work was the Whistler Blackcomb print line-up. Be as biased as you'd like in your answer, but how important is high-quality photography when it comes to print ads?
Dan: Ski magazines these days are very picture heavy, and we have all been into the grocery store and flipped through powder magazine just looking at the photos.... I think the ski resort advertising imagery needs to be just as strong as the rest of the magazines photographic content otherwise people will just pass it by without a second look. Once you have the readers attention then the design agency and copy writers come into play but getting people to stop turning the page and take a second look is the first step in my opinion. The imagery should be tailored to the readers too. Sometimes a photo of someone carving a pristine piste is not going to get a second look in a Freeskiing magazine so you have to know where the ad is destined to run.
SlopeFillers: You mentioned that merely a picture of "carving a pristine piste"
doesn't cut it in a freeskiing mag. What other mistakes do you see made with ski photography?
Dan: My personal pet hate is people who use photos of skiers or snowboarders in the air doing a trick but missing their grab. You see it all the time. To the designer of the ad, and seemingly the resort marketing team they dont see the difference. But if you run that ad in a magazine full of photos of the worlds best skiers, and show it to a young audience They'll spot it straight away and to me it makes it look like the photo was the last thought. You wouldn't run a photo of a guy making a mistake in his turn on that pristine piste so it shouldn't be done with Freeskiing photos either.
More than likely it's a simple case of the designer not being familiar enough with the subject matter but goes to show that some consultation with someone who is more familiar with the subject matter is a good idea.
SlopeFillers: Leaving print ads for a moment, resorts are constantly taking photos and sharing them via Twitter, Facebook, etc. They probably couldn't afford to deliver your level of photos day in and day out, but are iPhone photos good enough or should they put up the money to have someone with a bit more skill and better equipment provide higher quality pictures?
Dan: I think that can work because you aren't trying to attract people's attention from within a mass of other amazing ski photos. On twitter for example all you would see is a link, and people will either click it or they won't based on their desire to learn more , or interact more with that user. At that point it won't make a difference how good the photo is as they haven't seen it and by the time they do see it the resorts name is already reinforced in their memory. They obviously shouldn't be terrible photos , but for daily reminders of how awesome the powder is at some place I think it's not such a bad way to go.
Some places strike the best balance and don't use iPhone phone photos but photos from local photons who whilst they aren't pro , are still better than a phone.
SlopeFillers: What advice do you have for a resort that needs to get some high quality photos of their resort? What should they look for in a photographer, how can they make sure the photos don't end up looking like stock photos purchased online, are there certain shots that you think a resort should always have a few of on hand, etc.?
Dan: The first thing you can do is to equip your favourite photographers with an image needs list early on in the winter, before Christmas. If you get to the end of the season and budgets are running low but there was a shot you really wanted and don't yet have then the only options are relatively expensive specific shoots or buying something stock. If all the photographers know what you are looking for throughout the winter then you'll stand a much better chance of finding it when it comes to submission time in the spring. If you want a whole range of similarly themed shots then a specific shoot will be the way to go, but if it's just a single shot you need for the website or something like that then you don't want to have to go the stock route.
Another thing that I think is important is to use someone that specializes in snow sports photography. Commercial photographers who do not necessarily shoot snow all the time invariably come up with some of the most cheesy looking stock images because it is what they are unfortunately typically used to seeing. Talk to the photographer about any necessary models too because most will have people they love to work with and have already formed a good working relationship with. Some models look good but don't always ski well or take directions as well as you'd want them to so ask the photographer first if he can recommend someone he'd like to work with. If the resort has an online database of available images then refresh that pool on a regular basis. Ski and snowboard fashion comes and goes at a blinding rate and you can spot an old shot pretty quickly. An old shot will look like a stock shot.
In terms of shots to always have on hand, that really depends on the specific resort. Is it a family resort or a place with more extreme terrain. Does it have a famous backdrop or is it in an exotic part of the world. The image pool should contain shots that depict the nature of that resort and should ideally be unique shots that can only be from that location. Keeping generic powder face shot photos in the image pool for people to use will again just end up looking like stock photos when they are published. Get that unique feature or unique view in there for those shots because if they are being handed out to media you'll have no control over the location or context of their printing.
SlopeFillers: Thanks again, Dan. Any final thoughts on marketing and photography?
Dan: The final thing is that experience is worth a lot when it comes to this stuff. Invariably on a shoot there will be some hurdles to overcome because when you are dealing with mother nature and so many variables (clouds, snow, wind, ice, models) it's impossible to get them all perfect simultaneously. Hire someone with experience who is a professional in that field. Lots of people have fancy looking cameras these days but the guys out there who do it day in day out and make a living out of it do so because they can deliver in a wide range of scenarios. People often ask me what makes someone a professional photographer these days. For me it is someone who always delivers.
To say David Holm knows a thing or two about branding and logos is like saying that getting kicked in the face by Chuck Norris might tickle. David knows his stuff and has spent his professional life working in the field on a variety of levels. After making contact with David a couple months back, and realizing he was now spending a little bit of time with Buck Hill Ski Area in Minnesota, I thought I'd pick his brain for some resort branding gems:
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SlopeFillers: Dave, tell us a little bit about yourself. Your history as a designer,your involvement in skiing, etc.
David: After graduating from design school I started working at a promotional product firm in the Minneapolis area. During the 13 years that I worked there I also did a lot of freelance work with my main client being Buck Hill Ski Area. Not coincidentally, I have also worked at the same ski area for nearly 20 years. My graphic design work has focused on logo design and branding and I have had the privilege of working with many clients around the world, from Fortune Global 500 companies, to small mom-and-pop operations.
I love to ski and snowboard, and being involved in the ski industry as a designer is a great way to bridge two of my passions.
SlopeFillers: Dave, you've been working with logos and skiing for a long time. Out of all the resorts you've seen, what is your all time favorite resort logo?
David: If I had to choose only one favorite, it would be the Arapahoe Basin logo. There may be some personal bias here as A-Basin is one of my favorite ski areas, but I truly think that their logo is very successful in many areas. The logo is simple, just one color, and can't be mistaken for anything else. It's timeless.
SlopeFillers: You mentioned one reason you liked it was that it is one color. Why is that such so beneficial to A-Basin, but also other resorts with one-color logos?
David: A well designed logo should be successful without color or special effects. It should be simple enough to be used at very small sizes and printed on any medium. The main benefits of a simple logo are versatility, consistency, and ease of use.
I worked in the promotional product industry for over a decade. There were countless times when a client would bring us their new shiny logo with all kinds of colors and 3D effects and request it be printed on pens or key-chains at 3/4" high. Many times it wouldn't work without drastically modifying the design. To have a logo that is recognizable it needs to be used in a consistent manner. Having a logo that is simple enough to be used in the same consistent way across all mediums is a big part of developing the brand recognition that all businesses should strive for.
SlopeFillers: So, how imperative is good logo design for a resort? Is it going to make or break a brand or is it simply a helpful bonus?
David: A logo plays a very important part in any company's branding. It is the foundation of the visual identity of your business, it is often times your company's first impression.
However, a logo is not a brand, and your logo will not necessarily make or break your brand. Your brand is your complete business image, your brand is your customer's perception of your business as a whole.
Logos usually become more important after your brand is established. When you think of famous ski resort logos, there are probably a few that come to mind right away. I think of resorts like Vail & Snowbird. These resorts have been using the same logos for as long as I can remember, I would assume from their beginning. They are simple logos that by themselves aren't anything amazing, but when tied to the brands of Vail and Snowbird, these simple logos are priceless and a very important part of their respective brands.
That doesn't necessarily mean that your logo should never change. For some resorts, rebranding may be a way to breathe some new life into your business.
SlopeFillers: So how does a resort know when they should think about rebranding themselves? Are there any resorts you've seen that have been successful in their rebranding efforts?
David: Rebranding is much more than just a fresh logo, but as a logo designer, that is where I will focus. A new identity is something to consider if your resort's brand image is seriously outdated or no longer relevant. If your logo is unintentionally retro, it may time for a new look. If your business includes much more than skiing (snowboarding, tubing, mountain biking, etc), and your logo is ski-focused, it may time for a new identity.
Rebranding your business is a sign of change, and when your resort is going through big changes such as ownership changes, major expansions, or additional offerings, it is a perfect time to rebrand.
Mammoth refreshed their identity a couple years ago and as with most rebrands, not everyone was happy with the change. Some of Mammoth's fans were quite vocal about the demise of "Wooly", their old logo/mascot. However the new logo, in my opinion is a fantastic design, and much more versatile than the old cartoon mammoth.
Killington also has a new logo, and although I don't know what Killington loyalists had to say about the new image, I can tell you that from a designer's perspective, it is a great design. Their previous logo looked like it was stuck in the early 90's. The new image is classic looking, yet modern. If you did not know the history of the logo, you might assume that it had looked like this all along.
SlopeFillers: Anything else that's on your mind or advice/ideas for resorts about branding, and/or logo design?
David: Your brand says a lot about your business, and although your logo is not your brand, it is the glue that holds the visual elements of your brand together.
Logo design is often thought of as something simple, and although the end result may be a simple image, there is a lot more that goes into a successful logo design than meets the eye. Hire a professional, it's not always as expensive as you may think.
Since starting SlopeFillers, I've noticed that among the discussion on resort marketing are folks that aren't resort marketers. Heavily involved in the industry, they have incredibly insightful perspectives on trends and changes. I'm going to be collecting more and more of these "perspectives", and we'll kick things off with the one, the only, Eric Wagnon:
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SlopeFillers:Eric, give me a little background into your history and involvement with the ski scene?
Eric: I went to journalism school at UNC-Chapel Hill and have worked primarily on the television side for almost 20 years. As an avid recreational skier for more than 30 years, I first combined my professional career with the ski industry about eight years ago when I was working for the ABC affiliate in Chicago. I was producing a weekly lifestyle and entertainment show that periodically did travel episodes. Being that Colorado is a major destination for Chicago travelers, we did a few shows featuring Colorado resorts such as Aspen/Snowmass, Copper Mountain and Winter Park.
A little more than two years ago, I started writing online about recreational skiing as the "National Skiing Examiner" for Examiner.com. That exposure led to other opportunities with ski-related websites such as TheSkiChannel.com, Snowlist.com, and buzz.snow.com. I've also done a little work for Ski Canada magazine in the print world.
SlopeFillers:So, over those 30 years of skiing and 20 years of professional perspective what has been the biggest change in the ski resort marketing landscape that you've witnessed?
Eric: I would say the changes in ski resort marketing reflect the changes in the resorts themselves. For example, snowboarding and terrain parks really didn't exist 30 years ago, so any marketing in those areas is obviously completely new. As someone on the receiving end of "pitches" from resorts to do stories, I would also say that more and more resorts like to tout their non-skiing offerings that have expanded in recent decades. For example, one "ski" travel show I did included tubing, winter fly-fishing, snowmobiling, sleigh rides and dog sledding. As you might guess, this is particularly true for marketing departments dealing with general mainstream media outlets such as Chicago's ABC station where I worked.
In reaching out to the dedicated skiing population, it seems resorts have increased their emphasis on a more natural-- or even more "extreme"-- skiing experience in the last decade or so. The resorts try to offer "backcountry light," meaning natural terrain, but avy-controlled. I'm not sure if it's true, but the logic I've heard is that shaped skis have helped put this more challenging terrain within reach of a larger percentage of the skiing population. The cat-accessed terrain at Keystone and Copper, Vail's Blue Sky Basin, the expansion at Telluride, Highland Bowl at Aspen Highlands, Stone Creek Chutes at Beaver Creek, and Vasquez Cirque at Winter Park would all be examples of this trend. If you'll notice, all these new examples are in Colorado. I think the more rugged spirit of hike-to-terrain and such has long been instilled in other Western locales such as Alta, Jackson and Squaw. Interestingly enough, Park City in Utah is going the other way by marketing their groomed "Signature" black runs.
SlopeFillers:Great points, Eric. What about the future of resort marketing? Do you see these trends continuing or is there some "next big thing" on the horizon?
Eric: My speculation is that the "next big thing" in resort marketing will be related to the demographic reality that the first baby boomers are just now entering retirement age. Marketing to this group with time and money to spend will likely continue an emphasis on the total winter resort experience of sleigh rides, dining, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if you start to see lodging packages that allow retirees to spend an entire ski season at the resort (kind of a "ski-bum year" at the age of 65 instead of right out of college, albeit likely much more luxurious in nature). You may also see marketing to multi-generational families-- grandparents, parents, kids all vacationing together. Those situations are profitable for resorts in all the ancillary revenue sources such as lessons, rentals, and dining.
SlopeFillers:One final question. If reaching baby boomers is the next big step, what do see as the next resort marketing trend to fade away?
Eric: In terms of delivering marketing messages, print media will continue to fade away. I've talked personally with Vail Resorts CEO Rob Katz about their shift away from magazine advertising into an emphasis on social media. Marketing through social media is here to stay, but I think certain social-media avenues will fade away. Remember MySpace. The problem with social-media marketing as it now stands is that it's very difficult to come up with ROI in dollars and not just "Likes" or "Followers." Leading a publicly traded company, Katz may be in a honeymoon period with his social-media vision, but eventually shareholders are going to demand real return data in dollars. Whoever can design a social-media interaction platform that is appealing to consumers and also provides companies with real ROI data will be a very rich person. Perhaps Facebook can morph into something that provides those benefits or it'll be an entirely new concept. Whatever that turns out to be could supplant today's hot social-media models such as Twitter.
Video. Quite the popular medium these days. As a follow up to yesterday's Top Ski Resorts on YouTube post, I wanted to share some perspective from the group with the most YouTube subscribers, Vail Resorts, and the man behind their lens, Rex Lint. With Rex's new ACL still healing up, he had the time and was willing to share his story plus some great insights and tips into the whys and hows of jaw-dropping ski video:
SlopeFillers: Tell me a little bit about your background, how you got into shooting video and how you ended up with Vail Resorts.
Rex: I grew up skiing in N.H. Raced in High School on the ski team, and went to UNH for a couple years before dropping out to be a ski bum in CO.
I started ski patrol in Keystone in 1993. I also started Kayaking that same year in Santa Fe NM. Over the next 7 years I patrolled in the winter, and started a white water video company that I ran in the summer. The company (dragonfly video) was a bunch of VCR’s and a videonix linear editing switcher. This all fit in the back of my Toyota Previa. I took my show on the road, summers on the Arkansas, and fall in WV on the Gauley river.
The videos were super basic edits of commercial raft trips. I would mix the videos as people watched them, usually in a bar someplace. I would only get paid if people actually bought the videos. I did pretty well, making 200-500 a day, and getting to paddle my kayak, which was the really the whole point.
Wintertime I would use my little studio to make a ski patrol movie for our end of the season patrol party. Over the years the video became the main event of the party. These patrol videos got me discovered by the marketing people at Vail. They eventually drafted me out of Patrol, bought me a fancy studio, and made me a year round salaried employee.
SlopeFillers: In your opinion, what is the biggest challenge of shooting skiing and snowboarding as opposed to other sports or events?
Rex: Shooting big mountain and powder skiing is, for me, one of the most challenging and rewarding subjects to shoot, for so many reasons. Let’s start with snow. Is it snowing, how much, it’s got to be a lot, but not too much. It’s got to be light, but not too light, wind, bad, sometimes.
Location: Usually backcountry, long hikes, snowmobiles, maps, logisitics can be intense, days are often long.
Risk: Backcountry is a dangerous place, even for the experienced educated avalanche technitiion. I got buried last year, and blew up my knee this year. There is more risk to my athletes that to me, so the decision making process for what lines we are going to ski and shoot has to be a very cooperative process. It is a very delicate balance between getting the shot, and not getting hurt.
Team: Finding the right chemistry of people is critical. Team dynamics make all the difference in results, and in how much fun you have.
SlopeFillers: I watch a video you made and my jaw drops. I watch a video Joe Snow Report at Mt Trashmore makes and I cringe. It's easily to blame it on a camera, lighting, etc, but what do you see are the biggest differences between amateur video and professional video?
Rex: There are so many variable that together create a professional creative artistic video. No one thing makes or breaks a video, it is a combination of all the elements, and attention to detail that makes all the difference. Composition of the shot, putting your camera on a tripod, staying off the zoom, no pans for god sakes, these are all important elements of the shoot. A trick that really helped me, I learned from this old salty DP a couple years ago. His mantra that he would shout in my ear every time I touched my camera was “Don’t move the f***ing camera!!” He made us shoot a couple stories without moving the camera. This was an amazing revelation for me. It made me really consider my composition. This time taken to set up shots makes a HUGE difference in how a piece presents. Aesthetics is all about composition.
The edit, of course is critical. Music selection can sometimes take me longer that the entire edit. I am always listening to Pandora, and fine tuning my stations. The more creative and underground you can get, usually the more cooperative the artists are. If they are unknown, they will usually trade you music credit for rights. It is a win win. Pump audio and Killer tracks are also great sources of quality stock. Take your time in the search though, cause there is a ton of shit and elevator cheese that will suck the life out of the best photography.
Color corrections is critical. Take the time to learn basic color correction, especially if you have a less expensive camera. The 3 way color correct, and magic bullet looks are money skills in the Final Cut Pro world. Get to know Phillip Bloom.
SlopeFillers: Vail Resorts obviously takes video more seriously than other resorts. Should other resorts be putting more resources into professional video or is their amateur stuff enough for them?
Rex: The verdict is not in on quality vs quantity. Some people love the shaky dark, dirty lense, muffled audio. They just want content and lots of it. These people are usually marketing people that want the website they are in charge of to have a lot of videos on it, so they can say to their boss, we make 54 videos this week for the site. I don’t know who watched a 20min gopro video of some blue skier skiing coral reef on a grey bird. But people do.
Vail has really embraced the higher quality productions from their staff guys, while still leveraging the user gen stuff as well. I think there is need for both. Vail created the snow squad this year, bringing in a bunch of amateur video people, giving them a flip cam, and some basic tools. This worked really well, especially when it comes to event stuff. Social video is perfect for creating buzz on events, practically as it is happening.
This snow squad also frees up the staff guys to work on more high end productions. Vail also has invested in tools for the staff guys. Canon 5ds, dollys, jibs, lenses, and high end Mac studios. Video is the most effect way to communicate the outdoor product, and it is paramount that we maintain the brand with our signature video content. Producing poor quality dark grey lame video does more damage to the product than no video at all. Vail has demanded that the video quality be as high caliber as our photography has been for so many years. Jack Affleck is a legendary photographer. He has been the staff guy at Vail forever, and he sets the bar extremely high. It is a great challenge. I have learned a lot from watching him.
SlopeFillers: I mentioned this a little already, but I hear a lot of amateurs blame the camera. How important is having a good camera and do you have any camera recommendations for resorts looking to take video more seriously?
Rex: My Kit: Canon 5d (shoot all my scenics, interviews, and architectural stuff) Canon 7d (for most of my action stuff. The smaller censor and 60 fps make keeping stuff in focus and slow motion way easier) Panasonic HVX200. Great storm shooting camera, and run and gun event stuff. This thing is a beast and indestructible. Glass for Canon. 70-200 2.8 IS, 50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 15mm fisheye, 24-70mm 2.8. That is a good starter set. If you can afford the 400mm 2.8 IS, that lense is the shizzle, but is heavy and $$$ Intervelometers for the timelapses. Sachtler tripods, carbon fiber, light enough to carry on short to medium missions. Get some good mikes, a lav and shotgun set as well.
Most important have fun and tell a story!
Earlier this week I got an email from Steve Chipman, the co-founder of Media Funnel letting me know about a blog post he wrote regarding ways ski resorts could use the Media Funnel system. While we all know why companies blog about things like that, I let the down my "you're marketing to me" guard and took a quick look. Needless to say, I was impressed with what I saw. While I try not to do too many posts like this, I think the occasional exploration into technologies that help resorts improve their marketing and/or make it more efficient are worth some attention. Here's the 3 minute interview:
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SlopeFillers: Ok, tell me about Media Funnel. What it is, where the idea came from, who is benefiting from it the most?
Steve: We came up with the idea for MediaFunnel two years ago when we realized Twitter was going to be increasingly adopted by businesses over time. At the time, there was no easy way to involve multiple employees without sharing a username and password across multiple users.
Plus, we anticipated that some businesses would need a level of editorial control - so we created a contributor role, modeled after WordPress's concept of a contributor, which is a person who can add content, but who can't publish content to the world. Companies who benefit the most from MediaFunnel are: those that want to involve many employees in the social media engagement process; those who want to support customers who log customer service issues on Twitter and Facebook; and those who want to engage customers and guests via both SMS text and social media.
SlopeFillers: You mentioned some of this in your blog post, but how do you see ski resorts getting the most out of Media Funnel?
Steve: Ski resorts can leverage the natural tendency for guests to use their mobile phones between runs. With the SMS interface to MediaFunnel, a resort can communicate in real time with guests and can also take positive guest comments and "forward" them to social media channels, such as Twitter and Facebook - in order to boost the resort's social media marketing presence with "natural" content that comes straight from skiers who are on the slopes.
SlopeFillers: Going off that last part of your response about "guest comments",. what are a few specific methods you would recommend to resorts for gathering these comments?
Steve: Resorts can promote the SMS number in several different ways: on their Web site; on a trail map or on anything else that's visible to guests. The resort can provide a special offer in exchange for text comments, such as entry into a drawing for a lift ticket voucher or a drawing for a gift certificate to a mountainside shop or restaurant. MediaFunnel provides a report of all mobile numbers for a given campaign, from which a random drawing can then be generated.
SlopeFillers: When it comes down to it, for a resort with a tight budget this is another thing that will cost money, take time to learn, and doesn't have guaranteed results. What does MediaFunnel have in the way of training and support that would help resorts quickly get started and make the most of their use of the system?
Steve: MediaFunnel takes just a few minutes to set up and we have text tutorials and YouTube videos on setup and features. Our team is also available for live, online help with setup via GoToMeeting, at no extra charge.
There's a Standard Plan that comes with a 30 day trial and there's also a Free Plan for organizations with two or fewer users and two or fewer social media accounts (one Twitter and one Facebook account, for example). The Free Plan does not include Twitter brand monitoring. The URL is: http://mediafunnel.com/pricing-plans/
We've made MediaFunnel extremely affordable. The Standard Plan is only $1 per user/channel (combination of one internal user and one channel) per month. With either plan, even during the Standard Plan trial period, we do charge for SMS usage, since that comes at a cost to us. The cost per SMS number is $2.95 per month and SMS message credits can be purchased in blocks. The entry level block is 100 messages and this costs $5.95. So, the total financial exposure for trying out MediaFunnel, with SMS, is only $8.80.
A huge amount of effort is placed into getting visitors to your website. Paid ads, promotions, social media, SEO, etc. all play a role in traffic generation. It's little wonder, then, that you landing page's bounce rate is such a vital stat. Bounce rate is the percentage of visitors that arrive on your site but don't go any further. Rather than click through to another page, they simply go to a different website altogether. This term can easily be applied to many other areas (I'm sure there is a more official term for these but humor me if you will): first time ticket buyers that never return, season pass holders who don't renew, and ski school students that never become loyal, resort skiers. That last group is the one I'd like to focus on.
To be honest, when I first started looking into this I wondered if I should blog about it all. It seemed more mountain operations than marketing. When it comes down to it, however, the mountain is the product. Despite the fact that the "4-Ps" of marketing are all but forgotten, one facet of traditional marketing is shaping and refining the product to meet the needs of the market. That said, I've been very interested in a new venture called Socially Booked which some of you may have heard of.
Combining social media with your ski school, Socially Booked could help to accomplish a few goals, among them are two big ones: decrease the "bounce rate" and give you as a marketer an extra, unique, competitive benefit to use as you promote the ski school. I got in touch with one of Socially Booked's founders, Jim Keenan, for a few details:
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SlopeFillers: Tell me about Socially Booked.
Jim: Socially Booked is a social media platform for ski and ride schools. We give ski and ride schools the ability to offer their instructors fully functional, resort specific, social media profile pages that allows them to market and promote themselves, interact with guests and share content with their existing social media circles.
SlopeFillers:What are some of the details of the actual product?
Jim: Socially Booked is a SaaS (Software as a Service) platform offered to resort ski and ride schools. It's designed to seamlessly integrate into a resorts website providing guests with a single experience. We take the existing static, informational ski and ride web sites and make them dynamic and interactive. For example, one feature of socially booked allows instructors to create private, secure lesson pages for guests. This private guest page gives the instructor the ability to recap the lesson at the end of the day. The instructor is able to outline the days lesson, add pictures or video of the guest, make suggestions for improvement, reiterate the drills and award badges for the days accomplishments. It creates a permanent memorial of the lesson the guest can alway return to.
SlopeFillers: Where did the idea for Socially Booked come from?
Jim: The idea came out of frustration with the lack of tools to market and promote myself as well the lack of tools that allowed me to engage with my clients before and after the lesson. The lesson experience is awesome on the snow. Ski and snowboard instructors around the world are phenomenal. Unfortunately, 99% of the interaction happens on the snow. I felt that was too narrow. Therefore we wanted to build something that influenced learning to ski before, during and after the on snow experience. They say it takes 5 good experiences for someone to become a lifelong skier. We'd like to shorten that, to 2. If you can connect with people before their lesson and stay connected to them after, you have a lot more opportunity to improve their experience. There are more ways to hook people than just on the snow. Socially Booked is giving resorts the ability to do that.
SlopeFillers: How long have you been around?
Jim: We launched in July. This is our first season.
For more details see Eric Wagnon's article or find Socially booked on Twitter or their website. 
Video is hot. Helmet cams give riders a chance to relive and share their runs. Affordable HD is giving average Joes the chance to shoot top-quality video. And, when stacked up against text or static images, video takes the cake over and over again as the preferred medium. ViralBlog reported some incredible stats about video consumption on YouTube: more than 2 billions video views are recorded each day, 70% of viewers are from the US, and over 24 hours of video are uploaded every minute.
Riding on these coat-tails and with a huge boost from Terrain Park Manager Eric Rosenwald, Boreal started a simple, yet powerful contest that let up-and-coming film crews battle for prizes while showcasing the impressive Boreal park at the same time. I spent some time on the phone last week with Boreal's Marketing director, Jon Slaughter, to get the details on the appropriately named, Team Video Challenge. Rules and guidelines were as followed:
We've all heard of Travelocity and we've all heard of Liftopia. A new company, however, hopes to combine the best of both of these concepts. SnowTrax, a subsidiary of Airfare.com, has been in the works for two years but just launched live services only a few months ago.
While the site design looks pretty old-school and bugs are a plenty (according to their calculator it takes a little under two hours to drive the 20 miles from Ogden, UT to Snowbasin) SnowTrax also shows huge potential. Here are the full details from Evvie Meier, a project manager at SnowTrax:
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SlopeFillers:How long has SnowTrax been around and where did the idea come from?
Evvie: SnowTrax has been in creation since 2008, but just launched this August. Official promotions began in October. Our parent company, Airfare.com, has been in business since 1979. The idea was to create a niche travel website specifically targeted at a special interest travel group in order to meet the unique needs of this group. Rather than satisfy some of the needs of the larger travel market, our goal is to be the ultimate resource for a specific travel market.
For the ski market, this means stressing the importance of hotel or vacation rental precise location, particularly in relation to the ski lifts and ski shuttle bus stops. Also, calculating precise airport-to-ski resort drive times and offering travelers multiple arrival airport options so they can weigh the costs/benefits of flying into a smaller, closer airport (like Aspen) versus a larger airport hub that may involve a transfer (like Denver). These are just some of the many features that cater to the ski traveler specifically, and don't make as much sense for other types of travel.
SlopeFillers: How do you differ from other lift ticket or travel websites?
Evvie: SnowTrax has many features that users won't find anywhere else on the web. To name a few:
SlopeFillers: What role does the resort play in the system? Do they have a way to control what prices and offers you show?
Evvie: All of our lift contracts are with resorts directly, and we also have lodging contracts in place with resorts that manage their own lodging. Lift sales gives resorts full price control, of course, and we list all of our contracted properties first, so resorts can enjoy premium placement.
For those resorts we do have contracts with, there is a lot of variation in the level of interaction. Some resorts email us powder alerts and update us on sales and specials, which is of course the ideal. We are set to launch a marketing campaign that will blast specials across several ski and travel sites and their email lists, so we are actively promoting our partners' specials.
SlopeFillers: If a resort marketer is looking to partner with you, what can they expect as far as fees, support, and visibility?
Evvie: We don't charge any fees; we prefer to receive net rates and apply our own commission, but also have some commission-based contracts. We support several different Central Reservation Systems and also have our own Extranet that resorts can plug rates and contracts into (we are happy to fill these in for resorts, as well). Our extranet system was built internally and is improved daily, allowing us to meet unique contractual needs and handle atypical pricing systems from resorts.
We have a team of 20+ developers ready to provide technical support, and our staff goes above and beyond to cooperate with resort requests, respond to questions, and solve and issues. In terms of visibility, SnowTrax has a strong marketing budget to be allocated toward PPC, PR, and display advertising placements on prominent websites in the ski and travel industries. Our direct contract partners' specials are actively promoted in email marketing campaigns, and on "deals" sites across the web on sites including StudentUniverse, ShermansTravel, CheapFlights, and more.
SlopeFillers: Who should a resort contact if they are interested in partnering?
Evvie: Contact Matt Zito: mdz at mattzito dot com.
From a marketing perspective, teaching folks to ski for free seems to becoming a more and more popular way to not only introduce people to the sport, but create life-long, loyal skiers if done correctly. The old "law of reciprocity", if you give something free to me, I am that much more likely to give something to you: my business. One such program that popped up recently was Okemo Mountain Resort's program. It struck me because not only is the lesson free, but so is the rental and a lower-mountain lift ticket. Bonnie MacPherson, Okemo's Director of PR, gave me a few more details.
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SlopeFillers: Tell me a little about the new learn how to ski for free program and how the idea came about.
Bonnie: A few years back, the National Ski Areas Association reported some disturbing news regarding the state of the snowsports industry. The sport was not growing in participation and the retention and conversion percentages of new skiers and snowboarders were very low. Okemo decided to take a proactive approach to addressing this situation and created a program that has been very successful in achieving several major goals:
When it comes to print ads, I am sometimes harsh with my critiques. But when it comes to Origin Design's resort print ads, I'm speechless. I've already featured their stellar Whistler/Blackcomb ads, but they've recently showcased Jay Peak's new line-up that is as beautiful in a marketing sense as they are to look at. Interested in Origin's history, background, and reason for such stellar work, I got in contact with Danielle, one of the original Originians, for some answers.
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SlopeFillers: How did Origin get started working with ski resorts? Who was your first resort client?
Danielle: We opened our first studio in Whistler in 1993 and that location obviously defined for us the types of clients we would be working with. We (and when I say "we" I mean "me") were open about a week when Whistler Mountain handed us our first project. We were three people the next year, four more the year after that, and now 16 or so years later we're about 25 people with two offices —one still in Whistler and one in Montreal.
SlopeFillers: What is a unique challenges about working with a ski resort on a project?
Danielle: We're in a really fortunate position as we work with some of the leaders in the industry, and so our challenges are definitely outweighed by the benefits associated with having clients who are driven to be the best in their field, in marketing as well as operations. With that said, most ski resorts—even those that are evolving toward year-round business—have seasonal swings that are difficult to build a normal, steady business around. We've worked to diversify our portfolio of clients to compensate for those that have a real seasonality to their marketing. Beyond that, I'd say that having a marketing business where weather is a wild card is a bit of a bummer. We've seen our business effected when our clients have gone through lean snow years. And that's not just our resort clients, but snowsport brands can have down years when weather doesn't support the sale of their goods. This typically results in marketing budgets being cut somewhere down the line. On the flip side, it is extremely hard to measure the success of an advertising or marketing initiative if it coincides with snow. If it snows, skiers and riders show up in droves, and although I hate to think it, I sometimes wonder if we should have told our clients to save their dollars. (Perhaps I shouldn't say that. Do resort marketers read your blog. ;-)
SlopeFillers: Where do you go to find inspiration and ideas for ski resort clients?
Danielle: The obvious answer would be the great backyard that we have. Whistler is the mountains, and Montreal is renowned for its proximity to an amazing number of ski areas. But I think there's more to inspiration than that. Montreal, if you haven't been there, is one of the most culturally rich places in the world. If you can't get and stay inspired in that city, you don't think with the right side of your brain. Whistler, if you haven't been there, is this crazy melting pot of people from all over the world visiting, staying and passing through. The result is a culture that appreciates travel, and all of our people travel. Seeing the world is the best form of inspiration. We also take the time to surf the web, in the most old fashioned sense of the phrase. Get on, let it take you, you'll go crazy places that will spark your brain in awesome ways. Oh yeah, we have another major source of inspiration. We count some of the most amazing action sports photographers and filmmakers in the business as our friends and collaborators. Their imagery is our continuous source of inspiration. How can you not design something great around images that are amazing?
SlopeFillers: Why do you feel your team has been so successful in working with ski resorts?
Danielle: Since opening our first studio in 1993, Origin has recognized that our unique understanding of our clients' products, customers and markets allows us to stand apart from the competition. Our immersion in mountain culture keeps us at the forefront of its trends, innovations, research and events. If it belongs in the mountains, we live it, breathe it, work and play it. As we like to say, "You are where you live."
SlopeFillers: What advice would you have for resorts looking to work with you or any other marketing agency? What should they have on their end that would make the process of designing an ad or campaign as smooth as possible.
Danielle: I think if you're working with a professional agency, the best advice I can give to a client (or potential client) is focus just on your business goals or marketing objectives. Resist the temptation to solve the problem for them or tell them exactly what you want. If the agency is worth its salt it will provide strategy creative solutions to reach your objectives. In situations where our clients say something like, "we want to move the mark on early season pass sales to baby boomers" we dig into the project in a completely different way than when the solution is already prescribed for us, like "design a microsite that'll attract people over 55."
Beyond having their objectives, a client should have a budget to share. There is no benefit to keeping that budget a secret. There are a 100 ways to skin a cat when it comes to solving marketing problems. A good agency will take the objective, look at your whole budget and recommend the best way to get the biggest bang for your buck.
Last week, Tori Ossola, the Managing Director of Snow Monsters asked me if I had any data on kids and ski resorts. Coming up empty and being extremely intrigued as to what goes into a kid friendly ski resort, I turned the tables on her and asked her for a little bit of info.
Our conversation was simple. Three questions. Three answers to convince me of the need and benefit of a resort implementing a kid friendly program. I was going to edit down her answers but I felt the content was all good and relevant. A little bit of a longer read today, but worth the time to at least consider what they have to offer:
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SlopeFillers: Tell me about SnowMonsters. What is it? Where did the idea come from? What are your goals?
Tori: Snow Monsters was originally a kids song that former U.S. Ski Team member, Jack Turner, (more…)
The other day I got an email from Laura Parquette, brand and communications manager at Snowshoe Mountain Resort, informing me that the Top 25 Ski Resorts on Facebook list was lacking. According to her numbers Snowshoe should have been #20. As it was, they were nowhere to be found, at least on the public list.
Looking into it more, Snowshoe was on my list but had sat at #26 since August. Those same numbers told me that in the last two weeks, Snowshoe had gained nearly 1300 Facebook fans! And not just fans, but active participants. Average, Sunday afternoon wall posts were getting 10+ comments. Others, we doubling or triple that. Intrigued, I asked Laura a few questions, and she obliged. Thanks again Laura for keeping me on my toes and being so willing to share some insights into your social media efforts:
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SlopeFillers: When did Snowshoe start taking social media seriously?
Laura: Snowshoe became actively engaged in social media 2-3 years ago. While we have always (more…)
As I mentioned yesterday, my curiosity surrounding resorts use (or lack) of Liftopia has been insatiable: until today.
I finally had a chance to swap emails with Liftopia co-founder Evan Reece. Right off the bat I knew that Liftopia ain't no kiddie website just trying to make a few bucks. With a deep understanding of the industry and the financial ins-and-outs therein, here's what Evan shared with me:
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SlopeFillers: Give me the rundown on Liftopia. Where the idea came from, how long it's been around, mission statement, etc.?
Evan: Liftopia was founded by myself and Ron Schneidermann who had worked at Hotwire.com. Essentially, we were thinking about going to Tahoe but it hadn't snowed in a while. As skiers, we realized (more…)
I have always wondered why more resorts don't use Liftopia. And by "always" I mean the last two months. Their business model seems sound, traffic is high, why wouldn't a resort use that exposure and system to drive sales? I wondered, so I asked.
First I contacted Liftopia directly and swapped emails with co-founder Evan Reece (his interview is coming tomorrow). Then, I contacted Wildcat Mountain's Marketing Director Thomas Prindle who uses Liftopia extensively. He reported a few basic details about their use of Liftopia in a 2008 issue of SAM. Two years later, here's what he had to say:
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SlopeFillers: Why do you think more resorts aren't using Liftopia?
Thomas: Honestly, I don’t know (more…)
Canyons, UT announced a huge list of changes recently to their mountain, uphill capacity, and, most intriguing, the comfort of their skiers' derrieres.
Hannah Bowling, Canyons' Communication Coordinator, took some time out of her busy schedule to answer a few of my questions about they whys and how of the resort's latest upgrade, including some of their social media ideas.
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SlopeFillers: Talk a little bit about your decision and marketing goals to make so many big changes at once.
Hannah: The Canyons has been working the last couple of years to truly become one of the top destinations for guests not only locally but world wide, (more…)
The late infomercial superstar Billy Mays would have loved to work with Monarch Mountain. The reason, of course, if because his classic, "but wait, there's more!" line could have been repeated more than a dozen times. Here's why.
When you buy a season pass to Monarch you not only get excellent skiing there, but free (or nearly free) skiing at a host of other mountains like Grand Targhee, Alta, Taos, Loveland, Revelstoke, Arizona Snowbowl, Silverton, and more. Not too shabby of a deal, eh? Intrigued why other resorts weren't involved in similar partnerships, I emailed Monarch's marketing director Greg Ralph for details:
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SlopeFillers: Without sharing too many secrets, what are the details of these partnerships? How are both parties benefiting?
Greg: For most of the partnerships it (more…)
You see that button on the top right corner of the page called "contribute"? Yesterday, Stephen Krcmar, Mammoth Mountain's Social Media Manager used that link to let me know about a video series they put out just recently.
Using the beloved Mammoth mascot "Woolly" and his new friend "Bear", they were looking for a fun way to illustrate the summer activities that a lot of Mammoth skiers and riders don't realize exist at the mountain. Among other things, these clever videos are what they came up with. (more…)